AFC Championship - was that a TD?

[canuckrefguy]

Hey folks,

I posted a query on the football forum, but doesn't look like they post much over there.

You bball guys who also ref football: wasn't that a TD before the defender knocked the ball out? Is it reviewable?

BTW- kicking position open in Baltimore next year

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Hey folks,

I posted a query on the football forum, but doesn't look like they post much over there.

You bball guys who also ref football: wasn't that a TD before the defender knocked the ball out? Is it reviewable?

BTW- kicking position open in Baltimore next year

No it was not a catch. He has to "survive the hit or ground." He did neither of course. Also in the NFL they need to get two feet down, but still have to survive and immediate hit to show they have control. He had one foot down and could not hold on as bringing the ball into his body. That is much more the philosophy used at their level, but applied by many at other levels. I had a similar call in my State Final that even had more steps, but he never survived the hit or ground so I waved it off.

Peace

[canuckrefguy]

Okay, I think I get it.

Thanks, Rut - I just KNEW you'd be the first to respond

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I had a similar call in my State Final that even had more steps, but he never survived the hit or ground so I waved it off.

Peace

What does this mean? Survive the hit or ground?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What does this mean? Survive the hit or ground?

Exactly what it says. You cannot get hit immediately and the ball pop out. You cannot hit the ground immediately and the ball pop out. There was a very good reason the Calvin Johnson play was ruled the way it was. It has nothing to do with steps and feet if you cannot display you have control. No cheap catches or interceptions.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Exactly what it says. You cannot get hit immediately and the ball pop out. You cannot hit the ground immediately and the ball pop out. There was a very good reason the Calvin Johnson play was ruled the way it was. It has nothing to do with steps and feet if you cannot display you have control. No cheap catches or interceptions.

Peace

So, what defines "immediately" if not feet or steps? What do you have to do to be considered in control?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So, what defines "immediately" if not feet or steps? What do you have to do to be considered in control?

I honestly do not know if there is a definition for what you consider immediate. But usually the thought process is to make a "football move." If you are not ready to run up field, you are not going to award a cheap catch. For the laymen, turn up field as if you are going to run for more yardage after you have displayed control. If you cannot do that, then it is an incomplete pass even if it takes place in the end zone. This is done to not have cheap catch-fumble players as well. They would not have called that play a catch and fumble at the 50, so it is not a catch in the end zone.

peace

[zm1283]

The better question is why was Vernon Davis flagged for his TD celebration in the NFC game for standing on the TV camera stand? Why is jumping into the stands legal, but that is not? What is the difference? He didn't have the ball or use it for a prop either.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

They would not have called that play a catch and fumble at the 50, so it is not a catch in the end zone.

This part makes a tonne of sense in explaining the call.

[APG]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What does this mean? Survive the hit or ground?

NFL Rule Book (2011-2012)

Rule 8, Section 1

COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS

Article 3 Completed or Intercepted Pass. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).

Note 1: It is not necessary that he commit such an act, provided that he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.

Note 2: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body other than his hands to the ground, or if there is any doubt that the acts were simultaneous, it is not a catch.

Item 1: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball,and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

NFL Rule Book (2011-2012)

Rule 8, Section 1

COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS

Article 3 Completed or Intercepted Pass. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).

Note 1: It is not necessary that he commit such an act, provided that he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.

Note 2: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body other than his hands to the ground, or if there is any doubt that the acts were simultaneous, it is not a catch.

Item 1: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball,and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

So if he had gotten that second foot down before the defender knocked the ball out of his hands, would it have been a TD? Or would he have had to take another step?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

So if he had gotten that second foot down before the defender knocked the ball out of his hands, would it have been a TD? Or would he have had to take another step?

That meets (a) and (b) so it would be the judgment of the official as to whether (c) was met.

[APG]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

So if he had gotten that second foot down before the defender knocked the ball out of his hands, would it have been a TD? Or would he have had to take another step?

It's a judgement call as to whether the player was able to perform a football move. Even if that second foot would have gotten down, the hit was simultaneous to the second foot coming down and by rule, that would be incomplete (look at note 2).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

It's a judgement call as to whether the player was able to perform a football move. Even if that second foot would have gotten down, the hit was simultaneous to the second foot coming down and by rule, that would be incomplete (look at note 2).

The hit could have come a second later after the second foot came down and he had not controlled the ball and made a "football move" it is still incomplete. The feet coming down is only apart of a catch, other things have to happen to complete that catch. And as I stated before, it it would not be ruled a catch an a fumble in the middle of the field, it certainly is not going to be ruled the same at in the end zone.

Peace