Substitution play

[Ia-Ref]

tomes1978 got it right - Illegal Participation - 9-6-4d.

This is the old "hide out" play.

[Berkut]

I really don't understand why there is always a question about whether plays of this type are legal.

They aren't. None of them are. You cannot use the substitution system as a means of deceiving the other team. I had this in a college game this week, and the crew actually had to go and argue about it pre-game before we could agree that they could not do it - which bothered me. This should not require any discussion.

If the intent of the players doing whatever it is they are doing is to cause the other team to think that the player in question is not someone they have to cover or account for because that player is a substitute or replaced, it is illegal.

Period.

There isn't ever any reason for a coach to ask if a play like this is legal. Either the players are doing completely normal substitutions, in which case there is no need to ask me about it, or they are doing something not normal in an effort to deceive in which case they are going to draw a flag.

[voiceoflg]

Originally Posted by Berkut

I really don't understand why there is always a question about whether plays of this type are legal.

Because I am not an official and have not taken the time to learn all the rules. Thankfully I have the folks on this board who do a good job of teaching me, and I truly appreciate that.

Also, because the play was not flagged. Sorry, but if I don't know any better and do not see any of the officials on the field flag this, I assume it is legal. That is all I have to go on.

The video is on the team's website, but the receiver is off camera and it starts at the snap. They don't show what happened before hand.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by voiceoflg

Because I am not an official and have not taken the time to learn all the rules. Thankfully I have the folks on this board who do a good job of teaching me, and I truly appreciate that.

Also, because the play was not flagged. Sorry, but if I don't know any better and do not see any of the officials on the field flag this, I assume it is legal. That is all I have to go on.

The video is on the team's website, but the receiver is off camera and it starts at the snap. They don't show what happened before hand.

Sorry, my rant was not aimed at you, it was aimed at officials (including some that I know and should know better) and to a lesser extent coaches and players who should know this rule by now.

There is no legal way to trick the other team into thinking that a player is something other than a player.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Berkut

I really don't understand why there is always a question about whether plays of this type are legal.

There's no reason to ask in advance, because you know what your own intention is when you're planning it, and so does anyone else if you ask them about it. However, there is sometimes reason to ask after you've seen it done by someone else, "Was that legal?", because you may not know whether they were attempting to feign a substitution.

[chymechowder]

i'm not trying to legitimize hide out plays, and I realize that you have to be there to ascertain whether this was an attempt at deception, BUT:

Could this not be consistent with a qb gesturing to a teammate that he's in the wrong spot? If a back lines up behind the QB and the qb gestures as if to say: No, you don't line up here. You're supposed to be split wide.

all i'm saying is there's a difference between the QB or coaches yelling, "Hey get off the field, you're not in this play!" and a (potentially innocuous) gesture meant to indicate that a player should line up somewhere else.

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by chymechowder

i'm not trying to legitimize hide out plays, and I realize that you have to be there to ascertain whether this was an attempt at deception, BUT:

Could this not be consistent with a qb gesturing to a teammate that he's in the wrong spot? If a back lines up behind the QB and the qb gestures as if to say: No, you don't line up here. You're supposed to be split wide.

all i'm saying is there's a difference between the QB or coaches yelling, "Hey get off the field, you're not in this play!" and a (potentially innocuous) gesture meant to indicate that a player should line up somewhere else.

Sorry, but those 2 things are not the same. In the play the OP descibes, it is a type of play that is specifially forbidden by the rules. In the latter, their are no substitution/participation issues. The former cannot be viewed in any way other that an attempt to illegaly deceive/cheat. For the latter, perhaps the gesture was not innocent, but it impossible for us to judge.

[voiceoflg]

After long last, I have the video, but this is from a different game.

[HLin NC]

I don't quite understand, you say you have the video but this isn't the game. Same team, same type of play, ????

The video play you linked should have even flagged. The used a sub situation to deceive.