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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 07, 2011, 06:14pm
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Substitution play

I don't have the video yet. When I do, I will post it.

FED. 2nd & 10. After first down incomplete pass, the running back comes off the field and another player comes on. The quarterback looks at the player coming on and puts out his hands as if to say "what are you doing?" He then puts motions for the player to go back off the field. Only 11 are on the field for the offense at this point.

That player heads toward the sideline, but never steps OOB, stopping about a foot or two from the sideline. He turns to face the rest of the team and is up on the line, still in bounds. The ball is snapped and he streaks down the sideline. Pass is thrown to him, no one is covering, he catches it and scores on the 68 yard pass play.

Legal? In this game the officials allowed it without even conferring. I'm guessing the HC asked about it ahead of time, but I do not know that.
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Old Mon Nov 07, 2011, 06:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voiceoflg View Post
I don't have the video yet. When I do, I will post it.

FED. 2nd & 10. After first down incomplete pass, the running back comes off the field and another player comes on. The quarterback looks at the player coming on and puts out his hands as if to say "what are you doing?" He then puts motions for the player to go back off the field. Only 11 are on the field for the offense at this point.

That player heads toward the sideline, but never steps OOB, stopping about a foot or two from the sideline. He turns to face the rest of the team and is up on the line, still in bounds. The ball is snapped and he streaks down the sideline. Pass is thrown to him, no one is covering, he catches it and scores on the 68 yard pass play.

Legal? In this game the officials allowed it without even conferring. I'm guessing the HC asked about it ahead of time, but I do not know that.
Some officials mess things up so bad it is embarrassing. Hopefully this video doesn't end up on youtube like so many of the wrong ball type plays.

This is an illegal participation foul. You would think at least one guy on the crew would have known this.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 07, 2011, 06:47pm
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rule 9-6 art 4
...It is illegal participation:
d. To use a player, replaced player, substitute or pretended substitute to decieve oppenents at or immediately before the snap or free kick.

or

9-9 art 5
Neither team shall commit any act which, in the opinion of the referee, tends to make a travesty of the game.

Also, was the player between the numbers after the ready for play?
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Old Mon Nov 07, 2011, 09:39pm
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Lightbulb Canadian Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by voiceoflg View Post
I don't have the video yet. When I do, I will post it.

FED. 2nd & 10. After first down incomplete pass, the running back comes off the field and another player comes on. The quarterback looks at the player coming on and puts out his hands as if to say "what are you doing?" He then puts motions for the player to go back off the field. Only 11 are on the field for the offense at this point.

That player heads toward the sideline, but never steps OOB, stopping about a foot or two from the sideline. He turns to face the rest of the team and is up on the line, still in bounds. The ball is snapped and he streaks down the sideline. Pass is thrown to him, no one is covering, he catches it and scores on the 68 yard pass play.

Legal? In this game the officials allowed it without even conferring. I'm guessing the HC asked about it ahead of time, but I do not know that.
CANADIAN RULING:

Classic sleeper play. Flag as IS, and let the play go. Had it in a college game 3 years ago. 10 yards from PLS, repeat the down.
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Old Mon Nov 07, 2011, 11:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomes1978 View Post
Also, was the player between the numbers after the ready for play?
The way the initial description was made, there is also a possibility for illegal formation. The OP mentioned that the player was on the line and facing his team. That would fail to comply with the part of 2-32-9 which requires a lineman to face his opponent's goal line and have his shoulders approximately parallel to it. He would then not count as a lineman, and its possible his team only has six on the line.

If the QB doesn't signal to the sub that he shouldn't be on the field, and if the sub complies with the requirements for being a lineman and getting between the nines after the RFP, it sounds like a legal play. I haven't seen the video, either, so I'll defer my opinion on this case to a later time.
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Old Tue Nov 08, 2011, 09:02am
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tomes1978 got it right - Illegal Participation - 9-6-4d.

This is the old "hide out" play.
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Old Tue Nov 08, 2011, 09:35am
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I really don't understand why there is always a question about whether plays of this type are legal.

They aren't. None of them are. You cannot use the substitution system as a means of deceiving the other team. I had this in a college game this week, and the crew actually had to go and argue about it pre-game before we could agree that they could not do it - which bothered me. This should not require any discussion.

If the intent of the players doing whatever it is they are doing is to cause the other team to think that the player in question is not someone they have to cover or account for because that player is a substitute or replaced, it is illegal.

Period.

There isn't ever any reason for a coach to ask if a play like this is legal. Either the players are doing completely normal substitutions, in which case there is no need to ask me about it, or they are doing something not normal in an effort to deceive in which case they are going to draw a flag.
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Old Tue Nov 08, 2011, 12:16pm
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Originally Posted by Berkut View Post
I really don't understand why there is always a question about whether plays of this type are legal.
Because I am not an official and have not taken the time to learn all the rules. Thankfully I have the folks on this board who do a good job of teaching me, and I truly appreciate that.

Also, because the play was not flagged. Sorry, but if I don't know any better and do not see any of the officials on the field flag this, I assume it is legal. That is all I have to go on.

The video is on the team's website, but the receiver is off camera and it starts at the snap. They don't show what happened before hand.
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Old Tue Nov 08, 2011, 12:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voiceoflg View Post
Because I am not an official and have not taken the time to learn all the rules. Thankfully I have the folks on this board who do a good job of teaching me, and I truly appreciate that.

Also, because the play was not flagged. Sorry, but if I don't know any better and do not see any of the officials on the field flag this, I assume it is legal. That is all I have to go on.

The video is on the team's website, but the receiver is off camera and it starts at the snap. They don't show what happened before hand.
Sorry, my rant was not aimed at you, it was aimed at officials (including some that I know and should know better) and to a lesser extent coaches and players who should know this rule by now.

There is no legal way to trick the other team into thinking that a player is something other than a player.
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Old Wed Nov 09, 2011, 04:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berkut View Post
I really don't understand why there is always a question about whether plays of this type are legal.
There's no reason to ask in advance, because you know what your own intention is when you're planning it, and so does anyone else if you ask them about it. However, there is sometimes reason to ask after you've seen it done by someone else, "Was that legal?", because you may not know whether they were attempting to feign a substitution.
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Old Sat Nov 12, 2011, 12:07am
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i'm not trying to legitimize hide out plays, and I realize that you have to be there to ascertain whether this was an attempt at deception, BUT:

Could this not be consistent with a qb gesturing to a teammate that he's in the wrong spot? If a back lines up behind the QB and the qb gestures as if to say: No, you don't line up here. You're supposed to be split wide.

all i'm saying is there's a difference between the QB or coaches yelling, "Hey get off the field, you're not in this play!" and a (potentially innocuous) gesture meant to indicate that a player should line up somewhere else.
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Old Sat Nov 12, 2011, 08:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chymechowder View Post
i'm not trying to legitimize hide out plays, and I realize that you have to be there to ascertain whether this was an attempt at deception, BUT:

Could this not be consistent with a qb gesturing to a teammate that he's in the wrong spot? If a back lines up behind the QB and the qb gestures as if to say: No, you don't line up here. You're supposed to be split wide.

all i'm saying is there's a difference between the QB or coaches yelling, "Hey get off the field, you're not in this play!" and a (potentially innocuous) gesture meant to indicate that a player should line up somewhere else.
Sorry, but those 2 things are not the same. In the play the OP descibes, it is a type of play that is specifially forbidden by the rules. In the latter, their are no substitution/participation issues. The former cannot be viewed in any way other that an attempt to illegaly deceive/cheat. For the latter, perhaps the gesture was not innocent, but it impossible for us to judge.
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Old Sun Dec 02, 2012, 08:45pm
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After long last, I have the video, but this is from a different game.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 02, 2012, 10:45pm
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I don't quite understand, you say you have the video but this isn't the game. Same team, same type of play, ????

The video play you linked should have even flagged. The used a sub situation to deceive.
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Old Mon Dec 03, 2012, 05:09am
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