Kick or Defer?

[TXMike]

No good can come from letting kids make mistakes that are easily preventable. It is similar to the kickoff. How many guys have ever let a kickoff take place without the correct number of players on the field for each team? We just don't do it. We tell them to count their players and give them the few sexconds it takes to do that before we let the RFP be blown. Common sense is one of the greatest attributes an official can have. Unfortunately, it is not something that can be taught

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by TXMike

No good can come from letting kids make mistakes that are easily preventable. It is similar to the kickoff. How many guys have ever let a kickoff take place without the correct number of players on the field for each team? We just don't do it. We tell them to count their players and give them the few sexconds it takes to do that before we let the RFP be blown. Common sense is one of the greatest attributes an official can have. Unfortunately, it is not something that can be taught

+1 ... and +1 more for the final sentence.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by TXMike

No good can come from letting kids make mistakes that are easily preventable. It is similar to the kickoff. How many guys have ever let a kickoff take place without the correct number of players on the field for each team? We just don't do it. We tell them to count their players and give them the few sexconds it takes to do that before we let the RFP be blown. Common sense is one of the greatest attributes an official can have. Unfortunately, it is not something that can be taught

I do not think this has anything to do with common sense. The choice is there for a reason and if the kid cannot decide what they want to do properly, it is not our job to make the decision for them. There are also coaches that make bad choices all the time, are we going to make them call the right play because we are using common sense? The common sense we should use is to make sure that is what they want to do, not to make the decision for them. I had a team this week that ran a reverse on the 1 yard line and lost 4 yards to take an early lead. Coaches sometimes want silly things, like the Lions coach wanted to kick on an overtime decision and never got the ball back. If it is clear they want to defer we should give that to them that choice but if they insist on kicking the ball, they will learn the next time.

You are harming the other team as they can hear what choice you did not grant. We are accused of our integrity all the time; I do not think we should just ignore their request even if it is not what is ultimately wanted. I have no problem with asking or clarifying, I often have done the same on all choices, but not to just ignore what they say and do what I feel is best.

Peace

[CT1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think this has anything to do with common sense.

No surprise there.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CT1

The "problem", if you want to call it that, is that when a team's choice is to defer, they know that they're going to be kicking off to start the first half. Therefore, they sometimes use the shortcut "We'll kick" instead of "We'll defer."

It's certainly not what they mean.

We are reading minds now?

Originally Posted by CT1

No surprise there.

No surprise where? What are you afraid that someone is going to yell at you and hurt your little feelings? That what it sounds like to me.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We are reading minds now? Peace

Honestly, we might be here. I think it's pretty clear that in 999999 times out of 1000000 they really do mean defer. What's more, there is ZERO harm in doing what they MEAN here instead of what they say ... if they REALLY meant kick - they can still do so at the start of the 3rd quarter.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Honestly, we might be here. I think it's pretty clear that in 999999 times out of 1000000 they really do mean defer. What's more, there is ZERO harm in doing what they MEAN here instead of what they say ... if they REALLY meant kick - they can still do so at the start of the 3rd quarter.

Then tell me why do they have the option in the rules? I do not think we can just arbitrarily set a rule totally aside because "we think" they know what they mean. That is why we/my crew ask them to clarify so it is clear what they want. The vast majority of teams say defer and they are taught properly to say defer. Rare that there is any other choice and they use the proper terminology.

It does not take long to get clarification or ask the coach ahead of time. But then when they make a choice we should not choose for them. And again the harm is the other teams now thinks you made a choice for them and put them at a clear disadvantage. Either way someone can or will be upset when they coach their kids the right way.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Then tell me why do they have the option in the rules? I do not think we can just arbitrarily set a rule totally aside because "we think" they know what they mean. That is why we/my crew ask them to clarify so it is clear what they want. The vast majority of teams say defer and they are taught properly to say defer. Rare that there is any other choice and they use the proper terminology.

It does not take long to get clarification or ask the coach ahead of time. But then when they make a choice we should not choose for them. And again the harm is the other teams now thinks you made a choice for them and put them at a clear disadvantage. Either way someone can or will be upset when they coach their kids the right way.

Peace

I guess I see this more in parallel with "strongly suggesting" someone take or decline a penalty ... "are you sure," for example. Making sure they understand what they are choosing.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

What's more, there is ZERO harm in doing what they MEAN here instead of what they say

A says they want to kick. Referee decides that they want to defer. B then chooses to kick. Now A is mad because they wanted to kick but are now receiving.

It is one thing to make sure that the team understands that electing to kick means that they will probably kick to start both halves. It is a completely different thing to overrule the team's choice because you think you know what they actually want.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Cobra

A says they want to kick. Referee decides that they want to defer. B then chooses to kick. Now A is mad because they wanted to kick but are now receiving.

It is one thing to make sure that the team understands that electing to kick means that they will probably kick to start both halves. It is a completely different thing to overrule the team's choice because you think you know what they actually want.

Point taken.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We are reading minds now?

You don't have to be Kreskin to know they mean "defer" if that's what the coach told you during the pre-game.

(Assuming you have the common sense to ask him.)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CT1

You don't have to be Kreskin to know they mean "defer" if that's what the coach told you during the pre-game.

(Assuming you have the common sense to ask him.)

Somehow, never had a problem single problem with my procedure or way I handled it or my crew handled it. I can only think of one varsity game this ever was allowed to kick after we asked the player about 3 or 4 times "You really want to kick the ball?" Then the kid said, "Yes the coach wanted me to say kick the ball, we want to kick the ball." Funny, nothing bad happened. Imagine that.

Peace