Illegal Formation?

[tomes1978]

Rule 7-2-3 states:
"of the players of A who are not in their line at the snap only one may penetrate the vertical plane through the waistline of his nearest teammate who is on his line. He must have his hands in position to recieve the ball if it is snapped between the snapper's legs but he is not required to recieve the snap. Any other player(s) must be in legal position as a back."

So..... is it illegal for the QB to line up under the guard and then the snapper shotgun it to another back lined up in the backfield. I would say the QB was breaking the plane of a lineman but was not in "position to recieve the ball if it was snapped between the snapper's legs". We saw this the other night at a junior high game. I was not confident enough to call it, but asked the other officials and they had no idea if it was legal or not.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by tomes1978

Rule 7-2-3 states:
"of the players of A who are not in their line at the snap only one may penetrate the vertical plane through the waistline of his nearest teammate who is on his line. He must have his hands in position to receive the ball if it is snapped between the snapper's legs but he is not required to receive the snap. Any other player(s) must be in legal position as a back."

So..... is it illegal for the QB to line up under the guard and then the snapper shotgun it to another back lined up in the backfield. I would say the QB was breaking the plane of a lineman but was not in "position to recieve the ball if it was snapped between the snapper's legs". We saw this the other night at a junior high game. I was not confident enough to call it, but asked the other officials and they had no idea if it was legal or not.

We use a formation like that, but our QB doesn't quite break the plane of the snapper's waist. If he held his hands forward far enough, he would. Was the QB in the case you saw holding his hands under the guard's crotch past his waist? Was part of his head beyond that plane? A foot? Whether the snap goes to another back is immaterial, it's only whether he could receive a snap that goes between the snapper's legs.

I've heard of single wing teams being flagged for having their QB (blocking back) breaking the plane. It can happen if his feet are too far forward and he sticks his head into one of the gaps on the line. More commonly it's wingbacks who draw the flag. Sometimes you see it in punt formations where it's hard to tell whether those are blocking backs in the A gaps or guards. I'd hate to have to rule in such a case on whether the snapper or a player to one side of him is the nearest player on A's line to a player in doubtful position. I don't know where the benefit of the doubt is supposed to go.

[tomes1978]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

We use a formation like that, but our QB doesn't quite break the plane of the snapper's waist. If he held his hands forward far enough, he would. Was the QB in the case you saw holding his hands under the guard's crotch past his waist? Was part of his head beyond that plane? A foot? Whether the snap goes to another back is immaterial, it's only whether he could receive a snap that goes between the snapper's legs.

I've heard of single wing teams being flagged for having their QB (blocking back) breaking the plane. It can happen if his feet are too far forward and he sticks his head into one of the gaps on the line. More commonly it's wingbacks who draw the flag. Sometimes you see it in punt formations where it's hard to tell whether those are blocking backs in the A gaps or guards. I'd hate to have to rule in such a case on whether the snapper or a player to one side of him is the nearest player on A's line to a player in doubtful position. I don't know where the benefit of the doubt is supposed to go.

In this situation he was under the guard like the guard was the snapper. It when then be shotgun snap to another back. It was meant to be deciept the other defense is some way. Being a middle school game I probably would have talked to their coach first before I flagged it anyway. I asked the other officials and cited this rule and they had never heard of the rule...

[CT1]

Originally Posted by tomes1978

In this situation he was under the guard like the guard was the snapper. It when then be shotgun snap to another back. It was meant to be deciept the other defense is some way. Being a middle school game I probably would have talked to their coach first before I flagged it anyway. I asked the other officials and cited this rule and they had never heard of the rule...

That's gonna draw my flag. MS coaches need to concentrate on teaching fundamentals, instead of trying to re-invent the wheel.

[bisonlj]

If a team is going to try some trickeration like this I'm going to be a lot more strict on enforcing the procedural rules. It's not uncommon for a slot guy to be in "no-mans land" (behind the waist of the snapper but not behind the waist of the nearest guy on the line). That's not something to nit pick. But if any part of the QB is beyond the waist of any lineman near him, I'll have an illegal formation foul. Just play football and quit with all this crazy deceipt stuff.

[bcl1127]

We have had this in youth games this year. The first time I saw it, I did nothing other than tell the coach. When he kept doing it, flags were flying. He had told his QB not to put his hands under the guard, just line up behind him, but the QB kept putting his hands down there. That's a flag.

As for the poster who said they run the play and the QB does not break the plane of the center, it does not matter, he's breaking the waist of the player on the line meaning that in order for this to be legal, his hands need to be in position to receive the snap.

Agree that at the youth levels, this is a stupid play, teach the game here. All the youth and MS coaches seem to think this is the NFL...

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by tomes1978

In this situation he was under the guard like the guard was the snapper. It when then be shotgun snap to another back. It was meant to be deciept the other defense is some way.

That's exactly what we use it for. But exactly where were his hands? It's easy for his hands to be down where the defense can't see them yet not have them break the plane of the guard's waist, or even his butt.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Just play football and quit with all this crazy deceipt stuff.

Yeah, I guess deceiving the other team as to the location of the ball has no place in the game.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by bcl1127

Agree that at the youth levels, this is a stupid play, teach the game here. All the youth and MS coaches seem to think this is the NFL...

Huh? This is the sort of play that'd never work in the NFL, and is only suitable to children's football because it is a "stupid play". We'll take advantage of the other team's "stupidity" (inexperience, really) any time. Last night we were practicing this one and it even fooled me in that I lost track of where our TE was because I was counting OL positions from where our QB lined up. Of course it helps that confusion that in practice sessions our snapper has a fetish of carrying the ball with him into the huddle instead of leaving it at the spot!

Any opinions on other "stupid" plays like snapping the ball on "set" instead of "hut"? Or LBs saying, "Hey, I'm coming" whether they are or not? There's lots of stuff that works only with children, hardly any of whom are ever going to play in the NFL anyway, assuming the NFL still exists when they grow up.

[bcl1127]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Huh? This is the sort of play that'd never work in the NFL, and is only suitable to children's football because it is a "stupid play". We'll take advantage of the other team's "stupidity" (inexperience, really) any time. Last night we were practicing this one and it even fooled me in that I lost track of where our TE was because I was counting OL positions from where our QB lined up. Of course it helps that confusion that in practice sessions our snapper has a fetish of carrying the ball with him into the huddle instead of leaving it at the spot!

Any opinions on other "stupid" plays like snapping the ball on "set" instead of "hut"? Or LBs saying, "Hey, I'm coming" whether they are or not? There's lots of stuff that works only with children, hardly any of whom are ever going to play in the NFL anyway, assuming the NFL still exists when they grow up.

The reason why I think this is a stupid play is exactly for the reasons you say, it only works with the little guys. So it is really great that the coach is taking advantage of the kids that are trying to learn the game. The game is about the kids playing and learning sportsmanship, not about how the coach can trick other kids. What lesson are they learning when they are using these plays that only work with kids? It's the coaches ego that gets stroked when he comes up with a play that tricks 8 - 14 year old's.

Some of the coaches in the youth league where I work for 10 year olds, have 60 play cards and they give the card to the QB to start every play and the kid shows it in the huddle. These kids get so confused they don't know what to run and then get yelled at. There's a good way to teach the love of the game. Remember these are kids, and the biggest thing they can get out of playing is a love for the game and good sportsmanship.

Ok, I'm not trying to get into an argument here, but if a play only works because it is against kids, that play is something the coach put in to stroke his own ego of "I'm a great game planner, I can out smart kids!" and yes, I think that is kind of pathetic.

[tomes1978]

Originally Posted by bcl1127

The reason why I think this is a stupid play is exactly for the reasons you say, it only works with the little guys. So it is really great that the coach is taking advantage of the kids that are trying to learn the game. The game is about the kids playing and learning sportsmanship, not about how the coach can trick other kids. What lesson are they learning when they are using these plays that only work with kids? It's the coaches ego that gets stroked when he comes up with a play that tricks 8 - 14 year old's.

Some of the coaches in the youth league where I work for 10 year olds, have 60 play cards and they give the card to the QB to start every play and the kid shows it in the huddle. These kids get so confused they don't know what to run and then get yelled at. There's a good way to teach the love of the game. Remember these are kids, and the biggest thing they can get out of playing is a love for the game and good sportsmanship.

Ok, I'm not trying to get into an argument here, but if a play only works because it is against kids, that play is something the coach put in to stroke his own ego of "I'm a great game planner, I can out smart kids!" and yes, I think that is kind of pathetic.

Exactly right! I was a youth coach for 11 years before I started officating. Teach the kids the fundamentals that they will use the whole time they are playing football and you will help that kids football carrerr a lot more than teaching them trick plays. Too many coaches are out there for glory instead of teaching the game.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by bcl1127

The reason why I think this is a stupid play is exactly for the reasons you say, it only works with the little guys. So it is really great that the coach is taking advantage of the kids that are trying to learn the game.

How else do you learn the game other than by exposure to the tricks that can be used and the misplays that may occur? We make a big point about them not jumping offside regardless of what words are used as signals. We make a big point that they should start their defensive charge when the snapper moves the ball (assuming an initial adjustment), even if it just dribbles out of his hand(s). The first is a trick that works only with the inexperienced, the second is a misplay that practically only occurs with kids.

What lesson are they learning when they are using these plays that only work with kids?

The same lesson they learn when they're tricked by a chess move that's unsound except against beginners. They're learning from the level where they are, which is where they need to learn it from.

It's the coaches ego that gets stroked when he comes up with a play that tricks 8 - 14 year old's.

Of course we coach differently at this level than we would with more experienced and knowledgable players -- at least the good coaches coach this way. The bad coaches are the ones who don't coach at the level appropriate to the children -- and that includes assumption of knowledge of the game the kids don't have.

Along with tricks we might use with kids but not adults, there are also tricks we wouldn't try with kids because we know they're not sophisticated enough about the game to fall for them. For instance, influence blocking is pretty useless against kids because they don't know enough to try to fight the influence. Also there are things you don't do on offense because the opponent doesn't have the athletic ability to make them useful; you can't trap block an opposing DL who's not fast enough to penetrate quickly even when not blocked.

So yeah, until my HC this year showed me this formation, I'd never thought of it. It wasn't until last night that I even asked for that explanation. Once I got it, I endorsed it, although it should be supplemented by other plays to take advantage of the QB's position. Yes, the kids need to look where the ball is, and this is a way to burn those who don't heed that lesson.

[jTheUmp]

Had a Junior High game a couple of weeks back.

In pregame, one of the coaches says to me "We're not very good, so we run a lot of trick plays".... and alarm bells start going off immediately in my head.

Sure enough, second offensive play they run a 'swinging gate' type formation where the center tries to snap the ball sideways to a split end. Naturally, the snap was errant and ended up going out of bounds.

On their second series, they line up in a standard formation. The QB goes under center. The Head coach (on my sideline), then starts screaming "What are you doing? We're supposed to be in ____!" Quarterback yells back "What?" turns, and starts running to his sideline. Alarm bells start going off in my head, and after the QB runs about 10 steps the ball is snapped directly to the running back.
I flagged it as an "unfair act" (Casebook 9.9.1B).

On the next series, they play where the center never gave the ball to the quarterback... he snapped it and held it between his legs (not sure if the QB touched it or not), then paused for a few seconds while the rest of his team ran a fake. Then the center took off running with the ball.
Flag. (7-2-4)

Of course, I'm on this coaches sideline, so I get the honor of explaining all of these infractions to him. He took it surprisingly well, only saying things like "I didn't know you couldn't do that" and "we have to run trick plays to give ourselves a chance". It took a lot of self-discipline to refrain from telling him he'd be better off teaching his kids to run 3 or 4 basic plays well rather then trying to rely on trickery.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by tomes1978

Exactly right! I was a youth coach for 11 years before I started officating. Teach the kids the fundamentals that they will use the whole time they are playing football and you will help that kids football career a lot more than teaching them trick plays.

That's the mistake you and a lot of other people in youth football have: assuming the kids will have a football career! I assume the truth, which is that most of the kids will never play organized tackle football much past puberty -- and that we're here for all of them to have fun, not just those who go on to have something that could be called a "football career". And the kids find the trick plays that work only with beginners to be Fun with a capital F. You think those are primarily devised by coaches to stroke their own egos? Look at the games only or mostly children play, especially those that they make up themselves; they loooooove tricks of all kinds, to the point where some of the games they play are mostly about tricks.