Quick question

[Refsmitty]

My assumption was that by taking the penalty - A is replaying the down - from the basic spot. If that is not correct please advise for my own learning.

It seems to me that marking off 15 from the goal line is punishing the offended team - A -

[cdoug]

I was thinking that 10-4-7 applied because of the last couple of lines that talked about A forcing the ball into their own end zone and then having a loose ball. (BJ quoted the rule Art. I referred to.)

Therefore 1/15 from the A15.

[ChickenOfNC]

Originally Posted by cdoug

I was thinking that 10-4-7 applied because of the last couple of lines that talked about A forcing the ball into their own end zone and then having a loose ball. (BJ quoted the rule Art. I referred to.)

Therefore 1/15 from the A15.

I think 10-4-7 applies to running plays. This is a loose ball play.

[Refsmitty]

After reading BJ post again - I think he is right - again!

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Refsmitty

My assumption was that by taking the penalty - A is replaying the down - from the basic spot. If that is not correct please advise for my own learning.

It seems to me that marking off 15 from the goal line is punishing the offended team - A -

In an interesting rules twist, A benefits from fumbling in this play. Had the QB held on to the ball the penalty would have been enforced from the goal line.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

In an interesting rules twist, A benefits from fumbling in this play. Had the QB held on to the ball the penalty would have been enforced from the goal line.

It's enforced from the goal line regardless of the type of play, in part to prevent exactly this kind of benefit from fumbling. 10-4-7

ART 7 . . . The basic spot is the goal line for fouls, which are committed during
running plays by the opponent of the team in possession at the time of the
foul when the team in possession is responsible for forcing the ball across its
own goal line, and the related run ends in the end zone and is followed by a loose
ball, regardless of where the loose ball becomes dead.

[parepat]

I don't believe this is a loose ball play. Fumble behind LOS is not loose ball. I would penalize from goal line. If they don't like it, they could decline and give B the safety.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by parepat

I don't believe this is a loose ball play. Fumble behind LOS is not loose ball. I would penalize from goal line. If they don't like it, they could decline and give B the safety.

2-33-1 seems to indicate it IS a loose ball play:

c. A backward pass (including the snap), an illegal kick or fumble made by A
from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by parepat

I don't believe this is a loose ball play. Fumble behind LOS is not loose ball. I would penalize from goal line. If they don't like it, they could decline and give B the safety.

Actually, it's one of the definitions of a loose ball play. See 10-3-1c:

A loose ball play is...

...a backwards pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone and prior to a change in team possession.

Any run before the fumble is also considered part of the loose ball play.

(Hint: This is why a bag is unnecessary for a fumble behind the line of scrimmage -- the spot of the fumble is never going to be the basic spot.)

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by parepat

I don't believe this is a loose ball play. Fumble behind LOS is not loose ball. I would penalize from goal line. If they don't like it, they could decline and give B the safety.

Fumble behind the NZ is not a loose ball play UNLESS there's a change of possession, right? 2-33-1c

In any case, 10-4-7 refers to a loose ball (which we have) not a loose ball play.

[parepat]

I am an idiot.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by parepat

I am an idiot.

Thanks for the laugh. I love digging into the rules on a Friday afternoon. I can't wait until it's time to leave for my game.

[Tom.OH]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Thanks for the laugh. I love digging into the rules on a Friday afternoon. I can't wait until it's time to leave for my game.

Me to Rich, out the door in 1 hour 42 minutes...

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Fumble behind the NZ is not a loose ball play UNLESS there's a change of possession, right? 2-33-1c

In any case, 10-4-7 refers to a loose ball (which we have) not a loose ball play.

No. Prior to a change in team possession here simply means that if possession changes (and changes back), then it's a running play. A change of possession isn't a necessary condition for 2-33-1c (or the other citation from rule 10) to be in effect. A fumble behind the neutral zone is a loose ball play and A benefits from fumbling the ball here.

The Redding guide (NFHS) covers this beautifully in a figure in Chapter 11. It's Figure 11-6 on Page 154, for those that have it.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

No. Prior to a change in team possession here simply means that if possession changes (and changes back), then it's a running play. A change of possession isn't a necessary condition for 2-33-1c (or the other citation from rule 10) to be in effect. A fumble behind the neutral zone is a loose ball play and A benefits from fumbling the ball here.

Well that's what I thought. In that case 2-33-1c is grammatically incorrect. Shocker, I know.