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Old Tue Sep 13, 2011, 09:48am
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what do you have???

A lines up in a "tight" formation. QB and 2 RBs very close to the LOS. The center snaps to a different one at different times. The backs are maybe 2 yds behind the linemen. Snaps are usually of a short shotgun variety. However a couple times last night the snapper rolled the ball back to the backs. It didn't short hop them, he actually rolled it. Intentionally or not we don't know...what say you do we have anything here??
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Old Tue Sep 13, 2011, 10:25am
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Originally Posted by cmathews View Post
A lines up in a "tight" formation. QB and 2 RBs very close to the LOS. The center snaps to a different one at different times. The backs are maybe 2 yds behind the linemen. Snaps are usually of a short shotgun variety. However a couple times last night the snapper rolled the ball back to the backs. It didn't short hop them, he actually rolled it. Intentionally or not we don't know...what say you do we have anything here??
This is a good one that was elucidated by Coach Doug, whose posts I see in cx with youth football on a couple of sites.

The American codes require the ball to be snapped via either a passing or handing of the ball. So then look up the definition of pass, and you'll see that sliding or rolling the ball on the ground doesn't qualify. The Fed definition specifies "in flight", and the NCAA rule implies that a pass must start out in flight because the point where it touches the ground (if it doesn't touch a player first) determines whether it's a forward or backward pass. If the ball rolls all the way from the hand of the player who initiates it to the player who first touches it, by NCAA it can't legitimately be said to have been a backwards pass!

The portion of the snap that's in flight could be very brief before it starts to roll, bounce, or skid, but you do need that little bit of air under the initial part of its course for it to qualify as a backwards pass and hence a legal snap. It can bounce, skid or roll the remaining 90% of the way, say, after traveling thru the air the 1st 10%, and it's legal.

I don't know how you proceed under the current rules if the snap never gets off the ground -- i.e. whether you allow the ball to become live and flag for illegal snap, or the ball remains dead as a false start -- but you flag it regardless.

Last edited by Robert Goodman; Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 10:29am.
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Old Tue Sep 13, 2011, 10:54am
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NF

An illegal snap is a dead ball foul. The down can not start with an illegal snap.

Quote:
SECTION 40 SNAP
ART. 1 . . . A snap is the legal act of passing or handing the ball backward from
its position on the ground.
ART. 2 . . . The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball legally other
than in adjustment. In a snap, the movement must be a quick and continuous
backward motion of the ball during which the ball immediately leaves the hand(s)
of the snapper and touches a back or the ground
before it touches an A lineman.
ART. 3 . . . The snap ends when the ball touches the ground or any player.
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Old Tue Sep 13, 2011, 12:14pm
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Since it sounds like the snap was quick, continous and immediately left the centers hand(s), and definately touched the ground before touching a lineman, I would say this was a legal snap and play on. However, if any of these things does not happen, then it would be an illegal snap and the ball would be blown dead.

Since a snap is defined in the rule book(s) you do not use the definition of a pass to determine legality of the snap.
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Old Tue Sep 13, 2011, 12:18pm
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Originally Posted by IAUMP View Post
Since it sounds like the snap was quick, continous and immediately left the centers hand(s), and definately touched the ground before touching a lineman, I would say this was a legal snap and play on. However, if any of these things does not happen, then it would be an illegal snap and the ball would be blown dead.

Since a snap is defined in the rule book(s) you do not use the definition of a pass to determine legality of the snap.
Disagree: 2-40-1 defines a snap as passing or handing, both of which are defined terms. Rolling the ball is neither, and thus illegal.
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Old Tue Sep 13, 2011, 12:18pm
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I agree with Iump!
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Old Tue Sep 13, 2011, 12:21pm
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how does this happen

How does it immediately leave his hands before touching the ground if he rolls it???
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Old Tue Sep 13, 2011, 12:24pm
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Can a backwards pass be rolled? as the snapper is moving the ball backwards it has to be passed or thrown to get it rolling, now if he turns the ball on the ground it is a snap infraction.
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Old Tue Sep 13, 2011, 12:25pm
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Originally Posted by bigjohn View Post
Can a backwards pass be rolled?
No. A pass is a throw.
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Old Tue Sep 13, 2011, 12:27pm
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you have to throw the ball at the ground to get it rolling. as long as it is backwards it is legal isn't it?
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Last edited by bigjohn; Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 12:33pm.
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Old Tue Sep 13, 2011, 12:33pm
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7-2-8

ART. 8 . . . Any A player on his line of scrimmage may not advance a planned
loose ball in the vicinity of the snapper.

Doesn't say a back can't advance a planned loose ball, does it?
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Old Tue Sep 13, 2011, 12:40pm
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agreed

Agreed a back may advance a loose ball...the question remains, did we have a loose ball or an illegal snap....in order for a ball to be loose it must be live, in order for it to be live the snap must be legal....and then there is the chicken and the egg....
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Old Tue Sep 13, 2011, 12:50pm
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so if you pass a ball a short distance and it hits the ground and rolls, does it not fulfill the requirements for a snap?

ART. 3 . . . The snap ends when the ball touches the ground or any player.
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Last edited by bigjohn; Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 01:07pm.
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Old Tue Sep 13, 2011, 01:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HLin NC View Post
NF

An illegal snap is a dead ball foul. The down can not start with an illegal snap.
In what way did this ball not leave the hands of the snapper and then touch the ground.
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Old Tue Sep 13, 2011, 01:12pm
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Honestly, having trouble seeing this as illegal in any ruleset. At worst, it's a planned loose ball. I doubt that a single one of you would rule an illegal snap if a center fouled up a shotgun snap to the degree that it never left the ground ... especially if B recovered it. Nothing in the definition of pass requires the ball begin off the ground or leave the ground at any point.
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