what do you have???

[HLin NC]

NF

An illegal snap is a dead ball foul. The down can not start with an illegal snap.

SECTION 40 SNAP
ART. 1 . . . A snap is the legal act of passing or handing the ball backward from
its position on the ground.
ART. 2 . . . The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball legally other
than in adjustment. In a snap, the movement must be a quick and continuous
backward motion of the ball during which the ball immediately leaves the hand(s)
of the snapper and touches a back or the ground before it touches an A lineman.
ART. 3 . . . The snap ends when the ball touches the ground or any player.

[IAUMP]

Since it sounds like the snap was quick, continous and immediately left the centers hand(s), and definately touched the ground before touching a lineman, I would say this was a legal snap and play on. However, if any of these things does not happen, then it would be an illegal snap and the ball would be blown dead.

Since a snap is defined in the rule book(s) you do not use the definition of a pass to determine legality of the snap.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by IAUMP

Since it sounds like the snap was quick, continous and immediately left the centers hand(s), and definately touched the ground before touching a lineman, I would say this was a legal snap and play on. However, if any of these things does not happen, then it would be an illegal snap and the ball would be blown dead.

Since a snap is defined in the rule book(s) you do not use the definition of a pass to determine legality of the snap.

Disagree: 2-40-1 defines a snap as passing or handing, both of which are defined terms. Rolling the ball is neither, and thus illegal.

[bigjohn]

I agree with Iump!

[cmathews]

How does it immediately leave his hands before touching the ground if he rolls it???

[bigjohn]

Can a backwards pass be rolled? as the snapper is moving the ball backwards it has to be passed or thrown to get it rolling, now if he turns the ball on the ground it is a snap infraction.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

Can a backwards pass be rolled?

No. A pass is a throw.

[bigjohn]

you have to throw the ball at the ground to get it rolling. as long as it is backwards it is legal isn't it?

[bigjohn]

7-2-8

ART. 8 . . . Any A player on his line of scrimmage may not advance a planned
loose ball in the vicinity of the snapper.

Doesn't say a back can't advance a planned loose ball, does it?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

NF

An illegal snap is a dead ball foul. The down can not start with an illegal snap.

In what way did this ball not leave the hands of the snapper and then touch the ground.

[MD Longhorn]

Honestly, having trouble seeing this as illegal in any ruleset. At worst, it's a planned loose ball. I doubt that a single one of you would rule an illegal snap if a center fouled up a shotgun snap to the degree that it never left the ground ... especially if B recovered it. Nothing in the definition of pass requires the ball begin off the ground or leave the ground at any point.

[bigjohn]

SECTION 31 PASSING
ART. 1 . . . Passing the ball is throwing a ball that is in player possession. In a
pass, the ball travels in flight.

[parepat]

Sounds to me that this was simply a version of the single wing offense that has been in use since the 40's.

[MD Longhorn]

Hmmm... food for thought, but the lack of the word MUST leads me to still see nothing untoward here.

Think of it this way. Ball in player possession, player going down braces himself with the ball, sees a back behind him and tries to shuffle him the ball, but the ball ends up rolling on the ground...

Are you stopping the play? Calling that a bat? What? that can't be anything but a (bad) backward pass...

And no one commented on stopping the play I mentioned should B recover or sack the QB.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Hmmm... food for thought, but the lack of the word MUST leads me to still see nothing untoward here.

The lack of the word "must" where?

Are you denying that a scrimmage down must start with a snap? Do you deny that the rules specify either what a snap is, or what must be done to snap the ball?

Think of it this way. Ball in player possession, player going down braces himself with the ball, sees a back behind him and tries to shuffle him the ball, but the ball ends up rolling on the ground...

Are you stopping the play? Calling that a bat? What? that can't be anything but a (bad) backward pass...

It makes a difference whether the ball is on the ground all the way from the time it leaves the player's possession, or travels thru the air any distance on leaving the player's hand(s). In the latter instance, it's a backwards pass. In the former, under the American codes, it's not a pass at all, and since they define "fumble" by exclusion, you'll see that's what it is, which means that NCAA's & NFL's rules on advancing a teammate's fumble come into play in some situations.

In Canadian football AFAIK sliding, rolling, or leaving the ball on the ground is a pass if it's intentional.