PAT scrimmage line

[MikeStrybel]

I am new to HS rule set football officiating - I help cach my son's team so I figured it was time to make it official. I don't want to be the coach who doesn't know the rules. I see enough of that in baseball.

The PAT line of scrimmage is a bit confusing to me. I understand we need 7 on the line, but what constitutes the line? In a scrimmage the other day, we were told that only our far wings can be a step behind the rest of the linemen. In another scrimmage, we were told that we can have the end be a step behind his interior teammate and the win can be a step behind him. I have searched for a diagram showing legal and illegal PAT formations but come up dry. I would appreciate any clarification from you. Links to these formations will help me explain it better to my players. Thank you!

[mbyron]

To be on the line, a player must be facing his opponent's goal line with shoulders parallel to the line, with his head or foot breaking the plane through the snapper's waist (parallel to the line). 2-32-9

Step one for coaches to learn the rules is to learn rule 2.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbyron

To be on the line, a player must be facing his opponent's goal line with shoulders parallel to the line, with his head or foot breaking the plane through the snapper's waist (parallel to the line). 2-32-9

Step one for coaches to learn the rules is to learn rule 2.

Thanks, Mike. I read the rule long ago but see formations that don't comply.

I attended a HS varsity game last night with several coaches from our league and saw the ends positioned at angles to the line and the RB/wings even more so. Neither team drew penalties for this. A quick trip through YouTube showed similar formations that don't comply with the rule. Yes, even Ohio officials can be seen ignoring the parallel to the line rule in kicker highlight videos. In a few, I saw five players behind the center - two wings, a blocker between the center and guard, the holder and kicker. Is that acceptable too? My goal is to have our players compliant but not at a disadvantage.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Thanks, Mike. I read the rule long ago but see formations that don't comply.

I attended a HS varsity game last night with several coaches from our league and saw the ends positioned at angles to the line and the RB/wings even more so. Neither team drew penalties for this. A quick trip through YouTube showed similar formations that don't comply with the rule. Yes, even Ohio officials can be seen ignoring the parallel to the line rule in kicker highlight videos. In a few, I saw five players behind the center - two wings, a blocker between the center and guard, the holder and kicker.

There may still be a few HS varsities out there that don't play under one of the major codes. Meanwhile children's football is commonly played under league rules that differ from the major codes. I know of one children's spring league in Texas that explicitly allows the ends to have their shoulders at up to a 45 degree angle outward (i.e. away from the interior line).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

There may still be a few HS varsities out there that don't play under one of the major codes. Meanwhile children's football is commonly played under league rules that differ from the major codes. I know of one children's spring league in Texas that explicitly allows the ends to have their shoulders at up to a 45 degree angle outward (i.e. away from the interior line).

Well considering that this is in Illinois and in the Chicago area, I can bet money there are not such rules applied to the leagues at that level. Most leagues go specifically under NF rules except for those silly "striper" rules which can very from one league to another like Bill George and Pop Warner.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well considering that this is in Illinois and in the Chicago area, I can bet money there are not such rules applied to the leagues at that level.

You have a pretty thorough knowledge of the local teams, I suppose. I don't officiate, and am still finding out about teams and leagues here in the Bronx and nearby.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

You have a pretty thorough knowledge of the local teams, I suppose. I don't officiate, and am still finding out about teams and leagues here in the Bronx and nearby.

One of my good friends assigns the leagues now. And having taught a football class you tend to learn these things when officials start asking you questions. I certainly know more than I want to know that is for sure.

Peace

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I attended a HS varsity game last night with several coaches from our league and saw the ends positioned at angles to the line and the RB/wings even more so. Neither team drew penalties for this.

You are really off on your definitions, you really should study up on them. The parallel to the shoulders is a requirement to be a lineman. How is running back a lineman? The requirements for a lineman and a back are completely different. A wing is not a defined term but he is probably a back not a lineman.

I doubt you know what an end is. The end is not the player nearest the sideline. If the widest player is a back then he is not an end. The end is a lineman.

It's possible that what you claimed actually happened, but it is extremely odd for a varsity team to have a lineman set up with his shoulders not parallel to the line. The fact that you claim that both teams were doing this makes your story almost impossible.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

A quick trip through YouTube showed similar formations that don't comply with the rule. Yes, even Ohio officials can be seen ignoring the parallel to the line rule in kicker highlight videos. In a few, I saw five players behind the center - two wings, a blocker between the center and guard, the holder and kicker. Is that acceptable too? My goal is to have our players compliant but not at a disadvantage.

Can you post links to these videos of illegal formations?

Everyone has to be behind the snapper. The snapper's body is in the neutral zone (possibly his hand is all the way through the NZ and is actually on the defense's side of the ball). If anyone is lined up even with the snapper they would be encroaching.

All you need to do is have the snapper line up. Then have at least 6 more players line up with their head or foot breaking the plane of the snapper's waist. They must be facing forward with shoulders parallel to the goal line. These players are called linemen.

Everyone else should line up so that they are not breaking the waist plane of the nearest lineman. These players are called backs.

It is possible for a player to line up as neither a lineman nor a back. You do not want the team to line up like that.

[JRutledge]

Cobra:

Relax; he is coaching his son's youth football team. He is not a regular football official, even though he is an official on a regular basis in another sport. Part of his confusion is what officials at that level tell him. And the fact that he has officials at that level telling him incorrect stuff is the product of why many of those guys are working those games in the first place. And I can tell you if you are available for many of these games, you probably are working those games mostly for a reason. I rarely work with guys that are very experienced high school official at this level.

Peace

[MikeStrybel]

Thanks Jeff.

Cobra, I do know the definition of positions and referred to an RB/wing as the outside blocker - the guy who helps corral the defender who is trying to streak in to block the kick. In our league, we have 18 players on a team - the kids have to play both ways. The offense is supposed to but is not required to act as the PAT team. We simply move our RBs up to the wing and the line remains the same. During our first week, the officials said nothing about our formation. The next week saw a number of flags for not having our ends (not the backs) up and parallel to the line. My players are 9-11 years old and under 100#. It is competitive but instructional football.

We just finished our third week and only had the chance at two PATs today. Our rule set mandates that the snapper cannot move or block after the snap. The rule says he cannot be touched. The defense we faced today chose to block our guards into him instead, sandwiching him and pushing him back to congest the try. It was considered legal. I posted here to try to gain knowledge of what is permissible and legal. My goal is to help my players learn the correct way to play, but not be put at a disadvantage by doing something that others do and crews ignore as a grey area.

I appreciate your reply.