Taking a knee

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

It's not over til the clock is on 0:00. Offense has a game to finish by blocking and the defense has a job to do by trying to make a play. They have every right to play hard until the ball is dead by rule. It is not my job to take away an oppurtunity by telling them to lay off. If anyone is afraid of someone getting hurt and expecting the defense to lay off, then why don't you just disregard the 25 sec. clock and just let the clock run off without having another snap? Either way you handle it, you are still taking the oppurtunity that team B has at getting to the ball. JMO.

This is what is so frustrating with having a real conversation with many here. You take words and place them in people's arguments because you do not agree with it. No one here said anything about preventing someone getting hurt or stop from someone playing hard. We tell players to do things all the time and they either follow or they suffer the consequences. We tell players to line up a certain way (when to move up on the line or move back off the line), we tell them to watch their hands or stop when the play is over and we even tell them not to hit the center directly, but all of a sudden it is wrong to inform players of the situation where a team has clearly decided they are not going to run a play and to tell them to "be careful" which has always meant to me is not go over the top and start some trouble. If the damn offense fumbles the ball, then they fumble the ball and everything is the same. But that is not what anyone cares about; they are trying to stop players from over reacting to things that happen when the player is over. How about allowing a player to run head strong over the line and hit a player that is not blocking anymore? Are we to just say, "Well that is football." Usually when the game is over is the time when things can clearly get out of hand and have gotten that way in the past.

Peace

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is what is so frustrating with having a real conversation with many here. You take words and place them in people's arguments because you do not agree with it. No one here said anything about preventing someone getting hurt or stop from someone playing hard. We tell players to do things all the time and they either follow or they suffer the consequences. We tell players to line up a certain way (when to move up on the line or move back off the line), we tell them to watch their hands or stop when the play is over and we even tell them not to hit the center directly, but all of a sudden it is wrong to inform players of the situation where a team has clearly decided they are not going to run a play and to tell them to "be careful" which has always meant to me is not go over the top and start some trouble. If the damn offense fumbles the ball, then they fumble the ball and everything is the same. But that is not what anyone cares about; they are trying to stop players from over reacting to things that happen when the player is over. How about allowing a player to run head strong over the line and hit a player that is not blocking anymore? Are we to just say, "Well that is football." Usually when the game is over is the time when things can clearly get out of hand and have gotten that way in the past.

Peace

Do you tell them to "be careful" on every play of the game? The defense, I believe, is fully aware that they cannot hit a player after the ball is dead. When you tell a kid to "be careful" on a kneel down you have essentially told him to not go full speed. You have a muffed snap and the defense has basically quit because that is how they interpret your "be careful" you have taken away their right to play to 0:00. I believe in preventive officiating 100%. I'm just as prepared to flag a late hit on a kneel down play just as I am a normal play in the first qtr. I'm quickly coming in when he takes a knee, just as I do on any other play where there are piles of players after making a tackle. As I said previously, if you are expecting the players to ease up, then just let the clock run without a delay foul.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

Do you tell them to "be careful" on every play of the game? The defense, I believe, is fully aware that they cannot hit a player after the ball is dead. When you tell a kid to "be careful" on a kneel down you have essentially told him to not go full speed.

Actually I tell players a lot of the time stuff not to do during the game when the ball is dead. That is what I have done for years and just about every official that knows anything about football does the same thing. Oh, it is not just a HS thing; it is a college thing too from my experience. We talk to players a lot so we do not have to throw flags or unsportsmanlike or even personal fouls. Why is this time any different?

Originally Posted by JasonTX

You have a muffed snap and the defense has basically quit because that is how they interpret your "be careful" you have taken away their right to play to 0:00. I believe in preventive officiating 100%. I'm just as prepared to flag a late hit on a kneel down play just as I am a normal play in the first qtr.

But you keep talking about a muffed snap which I almost never seen at this point of the game at any level. If there is a muffed snap, then so be it. And if you think players only listen to us anyway, then you give us a little more credit then we deserve. I talk to players in a lot of football games and there is still a flag thrown for the very thing I warned them about. Sometimes the very player I warned for their behavior. Yep, the only listen to what we say.

Originally Posted by JasonTX

I'm quickly coming in when he takes a knee, just as I do on any other play where there are piles of players after making a tackle. As I said previously, if you are expecting the players to ease up, then just let the clock run without a delay foul.

Why change what you did the entire game right? Remember you said that everything is the same so why do you need to come in quickly? Sounds to me you are doing something you are being critical of others for doing. And again, I did not tell them to ease up or stop playing football; we tell them to be careful. Again this is what we do; it does not have to be what you do. In the culture of “our game” teams do the sportsmanlike thing and do not try to charge on a kneel down play. That is not just from what the officials tell them, that is how the coaches expect them to behave.

I will give one more analogy. This is kind of like the discussion people had about the Mayweather-Ortiz fight last night. There are some standards that are expected even when you are participating in a sport. Right or wrong on a football field you better be prepared to protect yourself. And some in that discussion felt that you should only wait until everything was OK to.

The bottom line is most games this is not even an issue. Most games are not one possession games where the snap a bad snap is going to decide the game. I have yet to have a game this year was even in question. Most games are blowouts or more than 2 possession games where even a bad snap would not change the outcome of any game. So this fear that "what if.." is really kind of silly to me. Most of the time the game is clearly over and the teams want to go on to the next week with all their players eligible the next game.

Peace

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Actually I tell players a lot of the time stuff not to do during the game when the ball is dead. That is what I have done for years and just about every official that knows anything about football does the same thing. Oh, it is not just a HS thing; it is a college thing too from my experience. We talk to players a lot so we do not have to throw flags or unsportsmanlike or even personal fouls. Why is this time any different?



But you keep talking about a muffed snap which I almost never seen at this point of the game at any level. If there is a muffed snap, then so be it. And if you think players only listen to us anyway, then you give us a little more credit then we deserve. I talk to players in a lot of football games and there is still a flag thrown for the very thing I warned them about. Sometimes the very player I warned for their behavior. Yep, the only listen to what we say.



Why change what you did the entire game right? Remember you said that everything is the same so why do you need to come in quickly? Sounds to me you are doing something you are being critical of others for doing. And again, I did not tell them to ease up or stop playing football; we tell them to be careful. Again this is what we do; it does not have to be what you do. In the culture of “our game” teams do the sportsmanlike thing and do not try to charge on a kneel down play. That is not just from what the officials tell them, that is how the coaches expect them to behave.

I will give one more analogy. This is kind of like the discussion people had about the Mayweather-Ortiz fight last night. There are some standards that are expected even when you are participating in a sport. Right or wrong on a football field you better be prepared to protect yourself. And some in that discussion felt that you should only wait until everything was OK to.

The bottom line is most games this is not even an issue. Most games are not one possession games where the snap a bad snap is going to decide the game. I have yet to have a game this year was even in question. Most games are blowouts or more than 2 possession games where even a bad snap would not change the outcome of any game. So this fear that "what if.." is really kind of silly to me. Most of the time the game is clearly over and the teams want to go on to the next week with all their players eligible the next game.

Peace

Good points. I guess my point is that in all the times we were told it was a "taking a knee" play, I've never said anything to the defense and I've never had any issues or cheap shots from not saying anything to them.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

Good points. I guess my point is that in all the times we were told it was a "taking a knee" play, I've never said anything to the defense and I've never had any issues or cheap shots from not saying anything to them.

I am not in total disagreement with your position at all, I have to make that clear. My point is that is what is accepted here or similar surroundings I am sure and would not be accepted in other places. I find nothing right or wrong as long as everyone is pretty much on the same page. You make some excellent points and I would have no problem doing that if it was not as common here.

Peace

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

The R walks up and says, "offense will take a knee; defense, do not hit anyone; offense, you are committed and you can't fake it." Sorry to sound arrogant, but this is the ONLY way to handle this. I wouldn't work for anyone that told me any different.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is what is so frustrating with having a real conversation with many here. You take words and place them in people's arguments because you do not agree with it. No one here said anything about preventing someone getting hurt or stop from someone playing hard. We tell players to do things all the time and they either follow or they suffer the consequences. We tell players to line up a certain way (when to move up on the line or move back off the line), we tell them to watch their hands or stop when the play is over and we even tell them not to hit the center directly, but all of a sudden it is wrong to inform players of the situation where a team has clearly decided they are not going to run a play and to tell them to "be careful" which has always meant to me is not go over the top and start some trouble. If the damn offense fumbles the ball, then they fumble the ball and everything is the same. But that is not what anyone cares about; they are trying to stop players from over reacting to things that happen when the player is over. How about allowing a player to run head strong over the line and hit a player that is not blocking anymore? Are we to just say, "Well that is football." Usually when the game is over is the time when things can clearly get out of hand and have gotten that way in the past.

Peace

Emphasis in both quotes is mine.

Jeff, JasonTX was responding to Texas Aggie who indeed did say the only way to handle the situation was to tell the defense to not hit anyone. That's not putting words into someone's mouth. And it's pretty clear Texas Aggie is going too far and doing far more than reminding the defense to play with due care.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

Ahhh, no.

This is horrible advice and I hope those following it do not see a kid hurt on a play like this. Injuries are virtually never your fault, but in this case, if someone gets hurt and you didn't tell everyone a knee was coming, in my view, that's on you.

Regional or not, its stupid not to inform the players. The R walks up and says, "offense will take a knee; defense, do not hit anyone; offense, you are committed and you can't fake it." Sorry to sound arrogant, but this is the ONLY way to handle this. I wouldn't work for anyone that told me any different.

Apples and oranges, given that your rules state that simulating taking a knee kills the play.

That said, what is stupid is telling the defense what play the offense is going to run, and also telling the offense they must run the play they announced.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is what is so frustrating with having a real conversation with many here. You take words and place them in people's arguments because you do not agree with it. No one here said anything about preventing someone getting hurt or stop from someone playing hard.

That's what's so frustrating with having a real conversation with you here. You assume he's talking to you (he wasn't ... he quoted the person he was replying to), and you say crap like "no one here said ..." when SEVERAL people have said EXACTLY that and/or parts of that... including the person he was responding to. Go re-read the thread if you don't believe me. YOU might not say or imply what he was referring to... but a LOT of referees do including many here - and it's flat wrong.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

That's what's so frustrating with having a real conversation with you here. You assume he's talking to you (he wasn't ... he quoted the person he was replying to), and you say crap like "no one here said ..." when SEVERAL people have said EXACTLY that and/or parts of that... including the person he was responding to. Go re-read the thread if you don't believe me. YOU might not say or imply what he was referring to... but a LOT of referees do including many here - and it's flat wrong.

I agree with JRutledge that this is largely a regional practice. In Upstate NY, when informed the offense is taking a knee, Referees usually move extremely close to the QB, and say whatever they choose to say to insure that nobody does anything stupid, as well as provide an instant whistle to minimize foolishness.

The players understand the reality of the moment 99.9% of the time. Faking a knee, after advising one will be taken is simply not an option as it will accomplish nothing following that instant whistle, other than an angry Referee.

If you are truly uncomfortable with how this type situation is handled in your area, then YOU have a difficult decision to make. Deciding to end a contest, whose result has already been decided, smoothly, rather than unncessarily risk any one of 22 teenagers being frustrated, to the point of doing something really stupid without thinking through the possible consequences, seems like a rational judgment rather than being, "flat wrong", but it's the Referee's call.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

That's what's so frustrating with having a real conversation with you here. You assume he's talking to you (he wasn't ... he quoted the person he was replying to), and you say crap like "no one here said ..." when SEVERAL people have said EXACTLY that and/or parts of that... including the person he was responding to. Go re-read the thread if you don't believe me. YOU might not say or imply what he was referring to... but a LOT of referees do including many here - and it's flat wrong.

Actually he and others are taking a position, it has nothing to do with me specifically other than I was one that took an opposite position from him and others. If that bothers you that I responded, then maybe these boards are not for you. People are going to respond to anyone's comments regardless of who stated them. I have not run into a single board where people do not take sides and there is a possible debate. And in this discussion it was implied that people said something that was not said. I did read all the comments and not one said anything that was accused. Now if someone in another thread made that comment, then addresses their comments. But what people do here is they disagree with someone and they add to the points of the discussion that were never addressed. No one here said anything about telling players not to hit each other, but every response suggested that very thing was advocated. I also think that Jason and I kind of understood each other in the end, which is why we have these discussions in the first place even if you do not agree all the time.

Peace

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No one here said anything about telling players not to hit each other

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

The R walks up and says, "offense will take a knee; defense, do not hit anyone; offense, you are committed and you can't fake it." Sorry to sound arrogant, but this is the ONLY way to handle this. I wouldn't work for anyone that told me any different.

So you read the whole thread but missed this point even when I specifically pointed it out to you the first time?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

So you read the whole thread but missed this point even when I specifically pointed it out to you the first time?

Take that up with him. I do not advocating anything other than telling players to be smart. As I said before we talk to players all day about all kinds of things and all of a sudden we should not talk to them in a situation where the game is clearly over? I have never seen a missed snap in these situations, but I have seen players get upset with each other and be chippy. I do not agree we should tell anyone to not touch each other, I just want them to be smart so they play the following week.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If that bothers you that I responded, then maybe these boards are not for you.

It doesn't bother me at ALL that you responded.

It bothers me that you got all bent out of shape that he dare disagree with someone else (not you) who said something - and you further go on to say that no one is saying the EXACT thing that was said. It was your tone of denigrating him for misunderstanding YOU when he was not even replying to you.

The fact remains that MANY here are saying exactly what you claim no one is saying. I have very little issue with the way you say you personally handle this situation, especially given that it seems to be common in your area. I have LARGE issues with the fact that some officials (some I've worked with, even) will flat out tell the offense they can't run a play - and tell the defense what the offense is doing. Frankly, unless told by the higher ups in the region or state, our job is to OFFICIATE - not to coach. And definitely not to tip off either side. At the VERY MOST - I can see an official saying something like, "OK, defense, IF the offense takes a knee, don't be stupid." But I've heard referees tell teams "OK, relax! They are taking a knee here - I don't want to see anyone moving." It really chaps my hide.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

My question is why would they run the formation with 2 minutes to go? That is a lot of time even if you run the play properly.

Hmmm... this happened in the NFL Sunday night game just last night. You can EASILY run 2 minutes off the clock with 3 knees... and even more easily so in NCAA than NFL... and more easily in FED than NCAA.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

It doesn't bother me at ALL that you responded.

It bothers me that you got all bent out of shape that he dare disagree with someone else (not you) who said something - and you further go on to say that no one is saying the EXACT thing that was said. It was your tone of denigrating him for misunderstanding YOU when he was not even replying to you.

What is bent out of shape to you? Other than responding to this thread, I do not think I thought much about what was said here. I do not even think I even discussed this situation with my crew or anyone else. So being out of shape is a little much doing you think? I do not recall throwing anything at the computer screen. Stop it with the hyperbole.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

The fact remains that MANY here are saying exactly what you claim no one is saying. I have very little issue with the way you say you personally handle this situation, especially given that it seems to be common in your area. I have LARGE issues with the fact that some officials (some I've worked with, even) will flat out tell the offense they can't run a play - and tell the defense what the offense is doing. Frankly, unless told by the higher ups in the region or state, our job is to OFFICIATE - not to coach. And definitely not to tip off either side. At the VERY MOST - I can see an official saying something like, "OK, defense, IF the offense takes a knee, don't be stupid." But I've heard referees tell teams "OK, relax! They are taking a knee here - I don't want to see anyone moving." It really chaps my hide.

You showed one guy who I missed a specific comment. And when this thread was started he was not even in the conversation. I am not here to defend every single person and their position on this issue. This like many other issues has layers to them. So I am not sure how "many" made such a claim either way other than there are folks that put everyone on the opposite position in the same boat. This is also why way back in the beginning of this thread someone said do what applies in your area. Those expectations will vary just like everything else we talk about here (rules application, mechanics, administrative policy) are all going to ultimately be based on what is accepted or not accepted in your area. And this issue is certainly one of them.

Forgive me for missing one of the many with the same or similar handle. But I do not recall seeing many saying anything in concert with one another from my point of view.

Peace