Illegal shift/motion or not

[wisref2]

You can argue illegal motion vs. illegal shift all day. In that case, it is both (the motion was illegal because of the shift, and the shift was illegal because of the motion).

Here's how I handle it. The first time the call happens in a game, I pick one or the other. The next time it happens, I pick the other one. I get to use more signals and it makes me look smart.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by wisref2

You can argue illegal motion vs. illegal shift all day. In that case, it is both (the motion was illegal because of the shift, and the shift was illegal because of the motion).

Here's how I handle it. The first time the call happens in a game, I pick one or the other. The next time it happens, I pick the other one. I get to use more signals and it makes me look smart.

It's not both. As a football official you should know the difference.

[wisref2]

As a football official, I also know that 50% of football officials will disagree with me whether I say it's an illegal shift or if I say it's illegal motion. Let's say this play happens on the field. Do you get all five guys together for a conference to decide if the signal is going to be one arm or two? Or do you just pick one and go with it? (which was my point)

Give you a good example (and let the argument begin) - tackle A2 is late getting into his three point stance. If he goes down and the ball is snapped without being set for 1 second, it's an illegal shift. Now, let's say as he's going down, the ball is snapped. Is that an illegal shift or illegal motion? The ensuing argument will be:
1 - he isn't done shifting, so he's in motion, thereby, illegal motion.
2 - he is in the process of shifting, not in motion, thereby illegal shift.
3 - false start (these people are disqualified from the conversation)

[mbyron]

I agree that many officials do not know the rules well enough to distinguish between illegal motion and illegal shift. An on-field debate with these officials is unlikely to yield clarity.

Nonetheless, the rules are quite clear if one bothers to learn them. Your example regarding A2 being late to his set is an illegal shift.

The argument that a shift involves motion, and so an illegal shift is also illegal motion is bogus. Illegal motion has a clear definition in the rules, and this is not it.

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by wisref2

As a football official, I also know that 50% of football officials will disagree with me whether I say it's an illegal shift or if I say it's illegal motion. Let's say this play happens on the field. Do you get all five guys together for a conference to decide if the signal is going to be one arm or two? Or do you just pick one and go with it? (which was my point)

Give you a good example (and let the argument begin) - tackle A2 is late getting into his three point stance. If he goes down and the ball is snapped without being set for 1 second, it's an illegal shift. Now, let's say as he's going down, the ball is snapped. Is that an illegal shift or illegal motion? The ensuing argument will be:
1 - he isn't done shifting, so he's in motion, thereby, illegal motion.
2 - he is in the process of shifting, not in motion, thereby illegal shift.
3 - false start (these people are disqualified from the conversation)

The only reason you're going to get an argument is that you did a horrible job of framing the play. The first example wouldn't necessarily be an illegal shift if all 11 were set before A2 (illegal numbering?) decided to make his adjustment. The second could also be either depending on what the other players on the field were doing.

Shift v. motion isn't a difficult concept. I'm glad I don't work with guys that have difficulty with it. There would be no conversation on my crew because everyone would have the same call.

[TXMike]

Originally Posted by wisref2

As a football official, I also know that 50% of football officials will disagree with me whether I say it's an illegal shift or if I say it's illegal motion. Let's say this play happens on the field. Do you get all five guys together for a conference to decide if the signal is going to be one arm or two? Or do you just pick one and go with it? (which was my point)

Give you a good example (and let the argument begin) - tackle A2 is late getting into his three point stance. If he goes down and the ball is snapped without being set for 1 second, it's an illegal shift. Now, let's say as he's going down, the ball is snapped. Is that an illegal shift or illegal motion? The ensuing argument will be:
1 - he isn't done shifting, so he's in motion, thereby, illegal motion.
2 - he is in the process of shifting, not in motion, thereby illegal shift.
3 - false start (these people are disqualified from the conversation)

Maybe Fed rules are different but a single lineman moving is NEVER a "shift". A "shift" requires 2 or more by definition.

The only times I can think of when you might have illegal motion and illegal shift at the same time are:
1 - 2 players are moving before the snap and do not reset for 1 sec and 1 of them also happens to be moving towards the line of scrimmage at the snap or
2 - 2 players are moving before the snap and do not reset for 1 sec and 1 of them also happens to be a lineman who never stopped and established himself as a "back" (NCAA Rules)

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by TXMike

Maybe Fed rules are different but a single lineman moving is NEVER a "shift". A "shift" requires 2 or more by definition.

The only times I can think of when you might have illegal motion and illegal shift at the same time are:
1 - 2 players are moving before the snap and do not reset for 1 sec and 1 of them also happens to be moving towards the line of scrimmage at the snap or
2 - 2 players are moving before the snap and do not reset for 1 sec and 1 of them also happens to be a lineman who never stopped and established himself as a "back" (NCAA Rules)

As you illustrate, NEVER is a dangerous word. If after leaving the huddle all of the other 10 players are set and "a single lineman" is still moving at the snap, you still have an illegal shift.

I think it's safe to say, "after all 11 players have come set a single player moving is NEVER a shift if all 10 remaining players remain set throughout that single players entire motion".

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

As you illustrate, NEVER is a dangerous word. If after leaving the huddle all of the other 10 players are set and "a single lineman" is still moving at the snap, you still have an illegal shift.

No ... TX is right - this play is an illegal shift - but not because of the motion of the single lineman ... because of the previous motion of the other 10 - you still need more than 1 moving to create an illegal shift.

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

No ... TX is right - this play is an illegal shift - but not because of the motion of the single lineman ... because of the previous motion of the other 10 - you still need more than 1 moving to create an illegal shift.

Mike, I understand the point TXMike was making. I understand the point you are making. I understand the difference between the two fouls. I just thought the language was a bit clumsy and might lead to further confusion for officials that haven't mastered the differences.

If someone is still trying to discern what constitutes and illegal shift v. illegal motion and reads a sentence like "a single lineman moving is NEVER a 'shift'", they may take that literally. They look up in their game and see only "a single lineman moving" at the snap and throw a flag for illegal motion despite the fact that all 11 were never set.

I just think you need to qualify the statement in order to be crystal clear. That's the only point I was trying to make.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

No ... TX is right - this play is an illegal shift - but not because of the motion of the single lineman ... because of the previous motion of the other 10 - you still need more than 1 moving to create an illegal shift.

Mike, this part is not correct for NFHS rules: a shift is defined as 1 or more moving before the set.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by TXMike

Maybe Fed rules are different but a single lineman moving is NEVER a "shift". A "shift" requires 2 or more by definition.

The only times I can think of when you might have illegal motion and illegal shift at the same time are:
1 - 2 players are moving before the snap and do not reset for 1 sec and 1 of them also happens to be moving towards the line of scrimmage at the snap or
2 - 2 players are moving before the snap and do not reset for 1 sec and 1 of them also happens to be a lineman who never stopped and established himself as a "back" (NCAA Rules)

NFHS rules are different, and do not define a shift in terms of 2 or more A players moving. (2-39: "A shift is the action of one or more offensive players who...")

Your play 1 is two fouls, not one foul that's both illegal shift and illegal motion.

Your play 2 sounds like an illegal shift and illegal formation.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by wisref2

As a football official, I also know that 50% of football officials will disagree with me whether I say it's an illegal shift or if I say it's illegal motion. Let's say this play happens on the field. Do you get all five guys together for a conference to decide if the signal is going to be one arm or two? Or do you just pick one and go with it? (which was my point)

Give you a good example (and let the argument begin) - tackle A2 is late getting into his three point stance. If he goes down and the ball is snapped without being set for 1 second, it's an illegal shift. Now, let's say as he's going down, the ball is snapped. Is that an illegal shift or illegal motion? The ensuing argument will be:
1 - he isn't done shifting, so he's in motion, thereby, illegal motion.
2 - he is in the process of shifting, not in motion, thereby illegal shift.
3 - false start (these people are disqualified from the conversation)

No offense to you intended here... but if it's truly 50-50 in your area, I suggest your training people get on their horses and fix it. These rules are very clear... I would hope that far less than 50% get this wrong.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by wisref2

You can argue illegal motion vs. illegal shift all day. In that case, it is both (the motion was illegal because of the shift, and the shift was illegal because of the motion).

Here's how I handle it. The first time the call happens in a game, I pick one or the other. The next time it happens, I pick the other one. I get to use more signals and it makes me look smart.

Only to the coaches and fans. Your fellow officials and possible evaluators know that you're wrong half the time.