Illegal forward what???

[ohiozebra]

Had a discussion at a game recently with a fellow official. Our opinions differed and I wondered what everyone thinks.

QB runs option. Qb and trail back cross line of scrimmage by several yards. QB starts to be tackled and "pitches" ball forward which falls to the ground and the defense falls on it. One official says illegal forward handling because the ball was thrown underhand , therefore a fumble. One official says illegal forward pass and incomplete pass because it hit the ground because the pitch is a pass whether thrown overhand, underhand, pushed forward, etc.

Opinions?????

[InsideTheStripe]

Incomplete illegal forward pass.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by ohiozebra

Had a discussion at a game recently with a fellow official. Our opinions differed and I wondered what everyone thinks.

QB runs option. Qb and trail back cross line of scrimmage by several yards. QB starts to be tackled and "pitches" ball forward which falls to the ground and the defense falls on it. One official says illegal forward handling because the ball was thrown underhand , therefore a fumble. One official says illegal forward pass and incomplete pass because it hit the ground because the pitch is a pass whether thrown overhand, underhand, pushed forward, etc.

Opinions?????

CANADIAN RULING:

We are to judge the play and use our noggins. Since there was a player to pitch to, any forward pitch will be an offside pass, and not an illegal forward pass. Therefore the ball is live and the defense's recovery is a COP.

[mbyron]

This play cannot be forward handing, legal or otherwise, because it's not handing: the ball was thrown. 2-19-1 defines handing in terms of the ball remaining in contact with a player as it is transferred. This would have been important if a foul had occurred while the ball was loose.

Since it was thrown forward (toward the opponent's end line), it's a forward pass (2-31). Since the thrower (not a passer) was beyond the NZ, it's an illegal forward pass (7-5-2). And since the pass was incomplete, it's an incomplete forward pass and thus dead (4-2-2c).

[JRutledge]

The manner in which a ball is thrown does not change the status of the ball. Underhanded is not different than overhand. The ball is either thrown forward or backward and you rule accordingly.

Peace

[jTheUmp]

As described, it is an illegal forward pass.

Re: pass vs handoff, think of it this way... if the QB throws a shovel pass to the RB that hits the ground, it's still an incomplete pass. Same thing here, with the added wrinkle of being beyond the LOS.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ohiozebra

QB runs option. Qb and trail back cross line of scrimmage by several yards. QB starts to be tackled and "pitches" ball forward which falls to the ground and the defense falls on it. One official says illegal forward handling because the ball was thrown underhand , therefore a fumble. One official says illegal forward pass and incomplete pass because it hit the ground because the pitch is a pass whether thrown overhand, underhand, pushed forward, etc.

Look at the definition of "fumble" in the USAn codes and you'll see it's defined by exclusion vs. other types of loose ball. Then look at the definition of "pass" and you get your answer.

[HLin NC]

One official says illegal forward handling

That official needs to spend a lot more time in Rules 2 and 7.