ILLEGAL FORWARD PASS

bobgootee · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 10, 2001, 04:12pm

WITH 11 SECONDS REMAINING TEAM A HAS FIRST AND GOAL AT B'S 5 YARD LINE. IT IS OBVIOUS THAT TEAM A IS GOING TO LINE UP AND SPIKE THE BALL. IN A DIRECT SNAP TEAM A QUARTEBACK TAKES A STEP BACK AND IMMEDIATELY SPIKES THE BALL TO THE GROUND.HOWEVER, B'S LINE SURGE PUSHED THE GUARD BACKWARD AND THE BALL ACCIDENTLY GRAZED HIS FOOT BEFORE STRIKING THE GROUND. IS THIS AN ILLEGAL FORWARD PASS?

bigwhistle · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 10, 2001, 04:29pm

First of all bob.....please don't shout at everybody. When you post it would be greatly appreciated if you did not use all capital letters.

Under NCAA rules, if the touching by an ineligible receiver is unintentional, which it is in the situation that you described, then there is no foul and the pass would just be an incomplete forward pass.

Even if the ineligible receiver attempted to catch the ball, you would not have an illegal forward pass. You would have illegal touching.

Ted Wilson · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 10, 2001, 04:33pm

What is the spirit and intent of the rule? Has anyone gained an advantage? Did the lineman bat, muff or catch the ball..its a no call but if it bounced up in the air off the lineman, it belongs to any B that can catch it or any eligible A who might catch it.

bobgootee · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 10, 2001, 04:39pm

sorry guy's this was my first posting, i'll use lower case in the future. i also forgot to mention that this played occured under federation rules and in no way did the lineman intentionally touch the ball

zebraman55 · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 10, 2001, 10:46pm

Let's keep things simple here.......The offensive guard had no intention of catching the ball, wasn't even facing the passer. In this case,it is just that the ball "slipped from the passer's hand". Common sense here says A's intent was to do nothing more than stop the clock, which the passer clearly attempted to do.

Incomplete pass, stop the clock, and allow A to set their strategy for their next play.

cw3Retired · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 12, 2001, 10:48am

Quote:

Originally posted by zebraman55
Let's keep things simple here.......The offensive guard had no intention of catching the ball, wasn't even facing the passer. In this case,it is just that the ball "slipped from the passer's hand". Common sense here says A's intent was to do nothing more than stop the clock, which the passer clearly attempted to do.

Incomplete pass, stop the clock, and allow A to set their strategy for their next play.

I have to disagree. Football is a game of skill, and the reward is to those who accomplish with skill the things that they attempt. It does not reward the mere attempt in and of itself.

Rule 7-5-2d (exception) "It is legal to conserve time by intentionally throwing the ball forward to the ground immediately after receiving a direct hand-to-hand snap."

This play does not meet the requirements of this exception. While it is not illegal touching by the lineman, it IS an illegal forward pass, and should be penalized as such, 5 yards and loss of down. To rule otherwise is to penalize B by nullifying his superior line charge. The clock stops on the illegal forward pass (Rule 3-5-3e), so A still gets the clock stopped.

BktBallRef · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 12, 2001, 01:02pm

1- I disagree. You can't just say that it doesn't meet the exception. Which part of 7-5-2 or the exception does it violate? There's nothing in the exception that says it's illegal if it unintentionally touches a lineman prior to touching the ground.

2- Now, if you're going tp rule that it's an illegal forward pass that's thrown to consume time, you can't allow the clock to start on the snap. 3-6-3

cw3Retired · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 12, 2001, 01:27pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
1- I disagree. You can't just say that it doesn't meet the exception. Which part of 7-5-2 or the exception does it violate? There's nothing in the exception that says it's illegal if it unintentionally touches a lineman prior to touching the ground.

2- Now, if you're going to rule that it's an illegal forward pass that's thrown to consume time, you can't allow the clock to start on the snap. 3-6-3

1. The ball was not thrown "directly" to the ground. It was thrown to the lineman's leg.

2. You are correct. The referee should start the clock on the ready.

Ain't life (and football) grand!

BktBallRef · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 12, 2001, 01:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by cw3Retired

1. The ball was not thrown "directly" to the ground. It was thrown to the lineman's leg.

Please tell me where you see the word "directly."

7-5-2 Exception
It is legal to conserve time by intentionally throwing the ball forward to the ground immediately after receiving a direct hand-to-hand snap.

Quote:

Ain't life (and football) grand!

Yes it is!

Mark Padgett · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 12, 2001, 02:41pm

Can a basketball ref who has never done football put his two cents in? OK, I will.

There is a difference between the term "to" the ground and "toward" the ground. If you addressed this on a basketball board, we would probably tell you that if the pass did not hit the ground before it hit anything else, then the pass did not go immediately "to" the ground. In this case, I would rule the pass went to the lineman's foot, and then a deflection went to the ground, not a pass.

The principle of advantage/disadvantage and rewarding skills is a strong one in basketball. Again - without knowing how this is applied in football (that's called a disclaimer

), I would have to make the penalty call in order to reward the onrushing guard for his skill and to penalize the QB for his lack of it.

BTW - you guys have a fun board.