lets kick these around

[James Neil]

I recieved a few plays the other day and thought I'd share them here . I figure the more I work on PSK now the better I'll be able to handle it when the time comes. Never hurts to get an early jump on it

1.After Team K snaps from the 50-yard line, R45 fields K2's punt at his 14-yard line and returns it to his 35-yard line. While the kick is in flight, R62 clips at his 20-yard line.

2.From Team R's 40-yard line, Team K punts and the kick enters Team R's end zone. During the kick, R66 holds at Team R's: (a) 12 yard line, or (b) 28-yard line.

3.Fourth and five from Team R's 24-yard line. While a field goal attempt is in flight beyond the expanded neutral zone, R46 grasps and twists K23's facemask at the 16-yard line. The kick is: (a) successful, (b) unsuccessful and goes out of bounds at the six yard line, or (c) unsuccessful after entering Team R's end zone.

I got some others I'll post tomorrow . but lets have some fun with these in the mean time 8^)

[KWH]

Originally posted by James Neil


1.After Team K snaps from the 50-yard line, R45 fields K2's punt at his 14-yard line and returns it to his 35-yard line. While the kick is in flight, R62 clips at his 20-yard line.

(1) PSK enforcment!
Penalty, (clipping 15 yards) is enforced half the distance from basic spot (which is the PSK spot at the R14 yard line) as the spot of the foul is AHEAD of the basic spot.
1st and ten for R (now A) on the R7 yard line!


2.From Team R's 40-yard line, Team K punts and the kick enters Team R's end zone. During the kick, R66 holds at Team R's: (a) 12 yard line, or (b) 28-yard line.

(2a) PSK enforcment!
Penalty (holding 10 yards) is enforced half the distance from the spot of the foul (as the spot of the foul is BEHIND the basic spot.) Remember, since the kick went into the endzone the basic spot is the K20!
1st and ten for R (now A) on the R6 yard line!

(2b) PSK enforcment!
Penalty (holding 10 yards) is enforced half the distance from the basic spot (as the spot of the foul is AHEAD of the basic spot.) Remember, since the kick went into the endzone the basic spot is the K20.
1st and ten for R (now A) on the R10 yard line!


3.Fourth and five from Team R's 24-yard line. While a field goal attempt is in flight beyond the expanded neutral zone, R46 grasps and twists K23's facemask at the 16-yard line. The kick is: (a) successful, (b) unsuccessful and goes out of bounds at the six yard line, or (c) unsuccessful after entering Team R's end zone.

(3a) This is not a PSK enforcment situation, rather it is a foul by the opponent of the scoring team and therefore under 2003 rules K has two options:

(Option 1) Take the field goal and the 3 points and have the 15 yard penalty enforced from the succeeding spot (the kicking teams 40 yard line,) meaning K will kick off from the R45!

or.....

(Option 2) Take the 3 points off the board and accept the penalty. Since the penalty occured during a loose ball/scoring play the foul will be enforced half the distance from the previous spot making the situation:
1st and 10 for K (now A) on the R12 yard line.

(3b) PSK enforcment!
Basic spot is the R6 (as this is where the kick ended)
Foul occured AHEAD of the basic spot so enforce the penalty half the distance from the basic spot making the situation:
1st and 10 for R (now A) at the R3 yard line!

(3c) PSK enforcment!
Basic spot is the R20 as the kick ended in R's endzone.
R's foul occured BEHIND the basic spot and therefore the foul is enforced half the distance from the spot of the foul making the situation:
1st and 10 for R (now A) at the R8!



Remember these are 2003 rules, they have not been published and therefore are subject to change!!!
...but probably not much!





[/B]

[James Neil]

Remember these are 2003 rules, they have not been published and therefore are subject to change!!!
...but probably not much!





[/B][/QUOTE] [/B][/QUOTE]

Great job KWH . Good explanation on all enforcements . You're making this sound simple 8^)
Here's a few more.

1. 4/5 @ K's 20-yard line. Team K is in an illegal formation at the snap. While K16's punt is in flight beyond the line, R24 blocks K88 in the back at midfield. R40 catches the kick at his 36-yard line and returns it for a touchdown.

2. 4/10 @ K-35 Cornerback R24 holds wide receiver K86 at the line while the punt is in the air. The kick is returned by R20 for a touchdown.

3. 4/5 @ K-25. R31 is in position to catch K15's punt at Team R's 40-yard line, but K42 interferes. After the kick lands on Team R's 42 yard line, R22 muffs the ball at Team R's 38 yard line. R63 then holds K43 at Team R's 36-yard line to prevent him from recovering the ball. K54 recovers the ball at Team R's 39-yard line and advances for an apparent TD.

4. 4/10 @ K-9 . After the punt has crossed the NZ and is airborn R54 blocks K-2 in the back at the R35. The ball lands at the 50 and while attempting to down the ball K88 muffs it toward R goal . Before it comes to a rest the BJ toots his whistle .

[KWH]

Originally posted by James Neil


Great job KWH . Good explanation on all enforcements . You're making this sound simple!

Thank you. The logic of the PSK rule IS relatively simple! The NFHS may make it more difficult than it needs to be by "force fitting" it into the fundamentals of NFHS, (my opinion) but we shall see what there final version looks like! Until then I'll answer your questions and I might just put up a few "Grey Area" PSK plays of my own. But not just yet!
By the way, Mr Neil and I are both from the Great State of Oregon and there are 48 (including DC) more states that this rule change effects! The rest of you can chime in any time! While I may be in my 25th year, "WE" are all still learning!There are no dumb questions, and the only way to learn is to ask!

1. 4/5 @ K's 20-yard line. Team K is in an illegal formation at the snap. While K16's punt is in flight beyond the line, R24 blocks K88 in the back at midfield. R40 catches the kick at his 36-yard line and returns it for a touchdown.

(1) PSK Enforcment "with options"
Since R gained the ball with "Clean Hands,"* (* Clean Hands as defined under the currect version of "NFHS PSK") R can keep the ball by declining K's illegal formation foul and having R's IBB enforced from the basic spot (the PSK spot) which is the R36. Making the game situation:
1st and 10 for R (now A) at the R26

or...

(1) R can accept K's foul which means K will accept R's foul (creating a double foul) and the penalties will offset (Replay the down)
4th and 5 for K at the K20

or... (for you rules nuts)

(1) K can decline R's IBB, R would then decline K's Illegal formation,
and award R 6 points
(This 3rd option is likely only to offered in Maryland-Modified-Bantam/PeeWee-DeRock common sense football)



2. 4/10 @ K-35 Cornerback R24 holds wide receiver K86 at the line while the punt is in the air. The kick is returned by R20 for a touchdown.

(2) This is not a PSK situation...
R's foul did not occur beyond the neutral zone expanded!
Remember to qualify for PSK enforcment, R's fouls must have occurred beyond the neutral zone expanded!
Therefore this foul occured during a loose ball play and the penalty (if accepted) would be enforced from the previous spot making the game situation:
1st and 10 for K (now A) on the K45


3. 4/5 @ K-25. R31 is in position to catch K15's punt at Team R's 40-yard line, but K42 interferes. After the kick lands on Team R's 42 yard line, R22 muffs the ball at Team R's 38 yard line. R63 then holds K43 at Team R's 36-yard line to prevent him from recovering the ball. K54 recovers the ball at Team R's 39-yard line and advances for an apparent TD.

(3) This is not a PSK situation...
K had possession of the ball at the end of the play
Remember to qualify for PSK enforcment, K can not be in possession of the ball when the down ends!
Therefore this foul occured during a loose ball play and any penalties (if accepted) would be enforced from the previous spot
HOWEVER, on this particular play we have a double foul (offseting penalties), replay the down from the previous spot! Making the game situation:
4th and 5 for K at the K25


4. 4/10 @ K-9 . After the punt has crossed the NZ and is airborn R54 blocks K-2 in the back at the R35. The ball lands at the 50 and while attempting to down the ball K88 muffs it toward R goal . Before it comes to a rest the BJ toots his whistle .

(4) This is not a PSK enforcement situation...
Remember the PSK spot is the spot where the kick ends, and This kick did not end!
Rather the BJ's Inadvertant whistle shut the play down.
Therefore this foul occured during a loose ball play and any penalties (if accepted) would be enforced from the previous spot
So...
If K accepts the penalty for IBB, the 10 yard penalty will be enforced from the previous spot making the game situation:
1st and 10 for K at the K19

or...

If K declines the penalty for IBB, Rule 4-2-3a applies (also see casebook 4.2.3 SITUATION A).
INADVERTANT WHISTLE - Replay the down!

Again, the above rulings are based on 2003 rule changes which have yet to be published in their final form.
It ought to be an interesting year!

[Edited by KWH on Jan 24th, 2003 at 03:03 PM]

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Jimmy and KWH -- great work on getting everyone beginning to think about the effect of PSK on the Federation game.

Here's a concern I have...Consider this play: K, 4-8 from midfield. Punter K1 muffs the snap. While he is attempting to recover it, R12 holds gunner K10 at R's 40. K1 finally recovers the loose ball and gets the kick off. R25 catches it at R's 10 and advances to R's 25 where he is tackled.

From what I've read thus far on the NFHS web site it seems that the Federation is intending to exclude the interval between the snap and the kick from PSK consideration. Any fouls during this interval would be subject to normal loose ball play (previous spot) enforcement. Not that it matters, but this is inconsistent with the NCAA rule which includes all activity during the down up until the point the kick ends as being subject to PSK enforcement. I know we haven't seen the final wording of the rule or the case book, but it's something I'll be looking for. And if it could be worse, one piece I read says that PSK won't "kick in" (pardon the pun) until the scrimmage kick crosses the neutral zone. Try to enforce that!

[Theisey]

.... and that would be a significant error of ommission IMHO if they failed to define PSK as a foul occurring during a scrimmage kick play, like the NCAA does.

[JMN]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KWH

1. 4/5 @ K's 20-yard line. Team K is in an illegal formation at the snap. While K16's punt is in flight beyond the line, R24 blocks K88 in the back at midfield. R40 catches the kick at his 36-yard line and returns it for a touchdown.

(1) PSK Enforcment "with options"
Since R gained the ball with "Clean Hands,"* (* Clean Hands as defined under the currect version of "NFHS PSK") R can keep the ball by declining K's illegal formation foul and having R's IBB enforced from the basic spot (the PSK spot) which is the R36. Making the game situation:
1st and 10 for R (now A) at the R21

KWH,

Shouldn't the enforcment in #1 be 1/10 for R @ R26?

[KWH]

Originally posted by JMN
[QUOTE


Shouldn't the enforcment in #1 be 1/10 for R @ R26?

Yes is should. Good catch JMN! I popped them 15 yards for a ten yard penalty! I have corrected my original post!

[KWH]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY:
Here's a concern I have...Bob-[QUOTE]

Bob-
I hear yours and Theisey's concern and I agree 100%. I eluded to "grey area" plays earlier in this thread of which yours is one.
In my opionion the NFHS, in an effort to get PSK to pass the NFHS vote they are force fitting it into the NFHS concept.
As an instructor, I feel it will be tough enough to get some of the "old mindsets" to accept the change to PSK however it will be much more difficult to get the "Small College Group" to accept the fact that the rule has this "Clean Hands" twist to it, making it different from the NCAA rule!
Hopefully if the clean hands version becomes the rule, it will be modified after one year.
With that I will give the current ruling on YOUR play!

K, 4-8 from midfield. Punter K1 muffs the snap. While he is attempting to recover it, R12 holds gunner K10 at R's 40. K1 finally recovers the loose ball and gets the kick off. R25 catches it at R's 10 and advances to R's 25 where he is tackled.

This is not PSK enforcment...
Because R did not meet the "Clean Hands" requirement of PSK, (R fouled prior to the kick crossing the neutral zone expanded) this "loose ball foul" (if accepted) would be enforced from the previous spot making the game situation:
1st and 10 for K (now A) on the R40

Same play - NCAA: Foul would be enforced from PSK spot(R-10) making the game situation:
1st and 10 for R (now A) at the R5

Obviously a HUGH difference!!!

[James Neil]

The Oregon “thing” is a good” thing”!

Again KWH great job! As you saw, I included both PSK and non-PSK plays to help Illustrate the difference and show that necessary criteria must be met before we go marching off yardage from the PSK enforcement spot and giving an undeserving R the ball. As far as how the Fed PSK is going to finally be written, I’m not much more optimistic then Bob is thinking they’ll probably adulterate it all to peaces. But the more familiar I get with the philosophy of PSK and its enforcement, the less scary it is for me and hopefully I’ll be ready to for any loops they deem fit to toss in the mix.
I got most of these plays from a 2002 KHSAA Football Rules Clinic. Kentucky experimented with PSK last year using these criteria

10-4-3 (new)
The basic spot is the spot where the kick ends when Team R fouls occur:
a. During scrimmage kick plays other than a try;
b. During a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone;
c. Beyond the expanded neutral zone;
d. Before the end of the kick;
e. When Team K does not have possession of the ball when the kick ends;
Team R fouls behind the PSK spot are spot fouls.

Check the wording in a. and b.

a.) “During scrimmage kick plays”,
b.) “During a scrimmage kick play”.


I’m hoping beyond hope it’ll be the same for all of us this year.

BTW .. Your ruling on the clean hands play was the same as theirs.

Fourth and five on Team K's 20-yard line. Team K is in an illegal formation at the snap. While K16's punt is in flight beyond the line, R24 blocks K88 in the back at midfield. R40 catches the kick at his 36-yard line and returns it for a touchdown.

“Ruling: Team R may keep the ball by declining the penalty for Team K's foul. The penalty for R24's foul will then be marked off via post-scrimmage kick enforcement. The basic spot is where the kick ended - Team R's 36-yard line. The foul is enforced 10 yards from that spot, resulting in first and 10 for Team R at their 26-yard line. If Team R chooses to accept the penalty for Team K's illegal formation, the result is a double foul and fourth down is replayed”

PS …no Maryland-Modified-Bantam/PeeWee-DeRock common sense football ruling was offered (thank God 8^)

[KWH]

Originally posted by James Neil
The Oregon “thing” is a good” thing”!

The draft that they voted on contained:
10-4-3(new, re-nimber 3,4) - The basic spot is the spot where the kick ends when R fouls occur:
a. During scrimmage kick plays other than a try;
b. During a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the expaned neutral zone;
c. Beyond the expaned neutral zone;
d. Before the end of the kick;
e. K does not have possession of the ball when the down ends;
R fouls behind the PSK post are post fouls.

As you can see the wording contains the words play and plays.
Thats the good news!

Now here is the bad news. They wrote this paragraph right under the rule:
Rationale: The penalty R recieves for a foul during a scrimmage is far to severe... ...This change, most importantly, does not creat an exception to the penalty code, but rather, a new enforcment spot. In addition, the rule change does not change the concept that R has to get the ball with "clean hands", but rather, that they have to have clean hands until the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone. This is consistent with the NF Handbook and the other rule codes.

As you can see while the "Rationale" is quite clear, the wording in the rule is inconsistant with the woring in the rationale.

Theisey, I agree with your humble opinion, but it's not looking very favorable at this point!
Time will tell!

BTW
My copy ends with this:
Questionaire Item #23: 138 Yes 76 No - 64%

[Theisey]

As you can see while the "Rationale" is
quite clear, the wording in the rule is
inconsistant with the woring in the
rationale.

Seems to me the words in the rationale are what is inconsistant with the wording in new rule.
That part about being consistent with the other rule codes is only correct if they are referring to the wording of the rule. If that writer is saying the words in the rationale are consistent with the other codes, then that is incorrect, at least if compared to NCAA.

One thing for certain, the rationale wording will not be in the rule book and that's all that will matter.

[KWH]

I'm with ya Theisey!
It appears they are trying to is "Force Fit" "Clean Hands"!
The simple way of making "Clean Hands" fit is to throw it out on this play!
Either way it ought to be an interesting year!



[Edited by KWH on Jan 27th, 2003 at 12:16 AM]

[sm_bbcoach]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KWH
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by James Neil
[B]

1. 4/5 @ K's 20-yard line. Team K is in an illegal formation at the snap. While K16's punt is in flight beyond the line, R24 blocks K88 in the back at midfield. R40 catches the kick at his 36-yard line and returns it for a touchdown.

(1) PSK Enforcment "with options"
Since R gained the ball with "Clean Hands,"* (* Clean Hands as defined under the currect version of "NFHS PSK")

Please help me wiht this concept..... "clean hands". What exactly does this mean? R fouled while the ball is in flight. How did R get the ball wiht clean hands???

[KWH]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sm_bbcoach

Please help me wiht this concept..... "clean hands". What exactly does this mean? R fouled while the ball is in flight. How did R get the ball wiht clean hands???

The "Clean Hands" Rule
NFHS Rule 10-2-2... (With 2003 revisions in bold)
If each team fouls during a down in which there is a change of team possession, the team last gaining possession may retain the ball, provided its foul is not prior to the final change of possession (other than PSK fouls or live ball fouls treat as dead ball) and it delined the penalty for its opponent's foul(s).

At this point in time (and it is certainly subject to change) the NFHS has this to say about "CLEAN HANDS"!
...the rule change does not change the concept that R has to get the ball with "Clean Hands" but rather, that they have to have "Clean Hands" until the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone.

Again, this is status of the rule change as of today. It has its faults as Theisey and I have attempted to point out.
However, to answer your question based on what the current status of the rule is, you are correct, in the play you were referring to, R fouled while the ball was not in any players possession, but the rule change next year indicates that R has met its "clean hands" requirement as long as they don't foul prior to the ball crossing the expanded neutral zone, and therefore "Team Possession" changes at that point also.
While the rule sounds a little shakey right now, (because it is) I believe the NFHS will have Case Book plays to support some of the grey areas out there. Until then we shouldn't get real deep as of yet. But you can bet the farm that we will rip this rule apart on this forum once the final version is published.

Hope this helps