It's a Fumble, Whoaaa Nelly!!

[ABoselli]

On 3rd and 11 from the A 3 yd line, A1 takes a pitch and is immediately hit in his own endzone by B1 who grasps and pulls A1's facemask while tackling him. Before A1 goes down, he fumbles the ball into the field of play and it goes out of bounds at A's 3. A1 then punches B1 and calls him a bad word.

Where's the ball next and what down is it (assuming the A captain isn't a complete nitwit) ?

[James Neil]

Originally posted by ABoselli
On 3rd and 11 from the A 3 yd line, A1 takes a pitch and is immediately hit in his own endzone by B1 who grasps and pulls A1's facemask while tackling him. Before A1 goes down, he fumbles the ball into the field of play and it goes out of bounds at A's 3. ?

AB, we've beat the hell out of this play or similar ones for two years now. The feds have come up with at least three different interoperations that I know of. The first one I heard said use 10-4-4d and enforce from the seceding spot. But this couldn't be right as the final result of this play is NOT a TB. Then they said enforce from the end of A1's run. Since we don’t mark off yards from inside the EZ, march it off from the goal line. Seems to me the last one we are told to ignore the fumble and treat it as if A1 never lost the ball. So off we go back to the seceding spot. I've had it with this play and am going to leave you guys to battle it out. BTW ...I'm a goal line guy 8^)

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ABoselli
On 3rd and 11 from the A 3 yd line, A1 takes a pitch and is immediately hit in his own endzone by B1 who grasps and pulls A1's facemask while tackling him. Before A1 goes down, he fumbles the ball into the field of play and it goes out of bounds at A's 3. A1 then punches B1 and calls him a bad word.

Where's the ball next and what down is it (assuming the A captain isn't a complete nitwit) ?

As a matter of interest, Canadian amateur rules would dictate:

We have fouls by both teams: B UR - facemask (7.3.5), A RP (7.2.2). This is a dual foul (8.6.1), only if both teams accept the penalties (8.6.2a). Let's assume that this happends; then: the POA is at the PLS, or the end of the run, at A's option (8.6.3).

Let's assume that A was tackled in the EZ and committed the RP foul in the EZ. Also, since the ball went OOB in the FoP, the point of origin for the fumble is the EZ. This will force A to apply the penalties at the PLS.

We would go up 15 for the facemask, and then half the distance back to the goal line for the A RP. 11 + 15 = 26, then to the 13. 1st and 10 for A.

Bruce, am I right?

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

we'll have 1st and 10 from the 9 yard line when all is said and done.


first we have a face mask against the defense in the end zone. runner fumbles from the end zone and ball goes out of bounds at the 3 yard line.

so I have 15 yards face mask from the end of the run which with the fumble is the 3 yard line.
1st and 10 from the 18 yard line.

but wait we have a personal foul on A1.(dead ball)

so Im marking off half the distant to the goal for this penalty and now we have 1st and 10 at the 9 yard line.



now if we have a 5 yard face mask...

we have the fumble at the 3 yard line. 5 yard penalty to the 8yard line. NO FIRST DOWN. then dead ball on A1's personal foul. so we have 3rd and 10 from the 4 yard line.


with a 15 yard face mask we have 1st and 10 from the 8 yard line


with a 5 yard face mask we have 3rd and 10 from the 4 yard line

[mikesears]

Originally posted by HighSchoolWhiteHat
we'll have 1st and 10 from the 9 yard line when all is said and done.


first we have a face mask against the defense in the end zone. runner fumbles from the end zone and ball goes out of bounds at the 3 yard line.

so I have 15 yards face mask from the end of the run which with the fumble is the 3 yard line.
1st and 10 from the 18 yard line.

but wait we have a personal foul on A1.(dead ball)

so Im marking off half the distant to the goal for this penalty and now we have 1st and 10 at the 9 yard line.

now if we have a 5 yard face mask...

we have the fumble at the 3 yard line. 5 yard penalty to the 8yard line. NO FIRST DOWN. then dead ball on A1's personal foul. so we have 3rd and 10 from the 4 yard line.


with a 15 yard face mask we have 1st and 10 from the 8 yard line


with a 5 yard face mask we have 3rd and 10 from the 4 yard line

I disagree that the 3 yard line is the end of the run (for penalty enforcement purposes). The end of the run is where the runner lost possession of the ball (NF 10-3-3b). Language in the case-book (10.5.2B) seems to back this up as well. 1/10 @ 15.

Obviously the U.C. would then be enforced after the first foul is enforced. The chains would then be set. 1/10 @ 7.5


Just my two cents.

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

mike I looked it up you are 100% correct

thank you.

[ABoselli]

Nice job, Mike. (no rule book here to refer to) We enforce all fouls on the defense that occurred in the end zone from the goal line, so the ball rolling out to the three is of no consequence, unless A has a pinhead captain who wants to decline the facemask, then we would march 1/2 the distance from the three. Otherwise, we go to the 15, award a new set of downs, back up 1/2 the distance, set up first and ten, blow it ready, start it on the snap.

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by ABoselli
On 3rd and 11 from the A 3 yd line, A1 takes a pitch and is immediately hit in his own endzone by B1 who grasps and pulls A1's facemask while tackling him. Before A1 goes down, he fumbles the ball into the field of play and it goes out of bounds at A's 3. A1 then punches B1 and calls him a bad word.

Where's the ball next and what down is it (assuming the A captain isn't a complete nitwit) ?

Ok here is my stab at this...

Ball is spotted at the 3 yard line. (where the live loose ball went out of bounds)

A captain will accept the 15-yard face mask penalty (grasp and pull). This places the ball at the 18 yard line--Team A is awarded a new series of down (1st and 10).

After the play was over, we have a dead ball unsportsmanlike for throwing a punch. A1 is ejected, ball is moved back half the distance to the goal and spotted at the 9 yard line. You now have 1st and 19 (or should that be 1st and 10).

[shocker]

Derock....the ball cannot be advanced by a fumble. If this was the case you would see guys throw the ball forward every time they got close to the sideline and were being tackled. Therefore the ball cannot be marked at the 3 where the fumble went OB. The spot would have to be the goaline. There was a post that basically said the same thing a few posts up.

Nice job getting the ejection though. Throwing a punch or kicking is an act of fighting and the penalty would be 15 yards and an ejection.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Derock1986
Ok here is my stab at this...

Ball is spotted at the 3 yard line. (where the live loose ball went out of bounds)[/B]

This is the result of the play but not the end of the run. The end of the run for enforcement of the penalty is the goal line.

Originally posted by Derock1986
A captain will accept the 15-yard face mask penalty (grasp and pull). This places the ball at the 18 yard line--Team A is awarded a new series of down (1st and 10).

Close, but because we enforce from the goal line, the penalty takes the ball out to the 15. 1&10 from there.

Originally posted by Derock1986
After the play was over, we have a dead ball unsportsmanlike for throwing a punch. A1 is ejected, ball is moved back half the distance to the goal and spotted at the 9 yard line. You now have 1st and 19 (or should that be 1st and 10).

Excellent, enforce the dead-ball penalty after the live-ball penalty. Good job.

But it would be 1&10 and would start at the 7 1/2. (See above)

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by shocker
Derock....the ball cannot be advanced by a fumble. If this was the case you would see guys throw the ball forward every time they got close to the sideline and were being tackled. Therefore the ball cannot be marked at the 3 where the fumble went OB. The spot would have to be the goaline. There was a post that basically said the same thing a few posts up.

Nice job getting the ejection though. Throwing a punch or kicking is an act of fighting and the penalty would be 15 yards and an ejection.

Now I'm confused?
In an earlier post, I was told/corrected that you spot the ball where the fumble goes out of bounds. Now you're saying the ball cannot be advanced by a fumble (which is what I said earlier).

Someone, anyone please clear this up for me.

[Theisey]

Originally posted by shocker
Derock....the ball cannot be advanced by a fumble. If this was the case you would see guys throw the ball forward every time they got close to the sideline and were being tackled.

Careful with those words... if they thrown the ball forward, you could have a flag for an illegal pass.

[shocker]

Derock....if the fumble goes backwards then it's where the fumble goes OB. If it goes forwards, it's the spot of the fumble.

Theisey....I used the wrong wording. I did not mean throw, but intentionally drop the ball to advance it OB.

[ABoselli]

If it goes forwards, it's the spot of the fumble.

Not in NFHS. It' is where it crosses the sideline. The ball coming out to the three is of no consequence unless A refuses the facemask - then we just mark off the USC from the three. Fouls by the defense in their own end zone are enforced from the goal line.

Derock, no 1st and more than 10 unless a foul is committed after the next ready for play!!!!!!!

[shocker]

ABoselli...so if A1 has a 2-7, runs 5 yards and fumbles 4 yards and OB. That would be a 1-10 since the ball went 9 yards?