It's a Fumble, Whoaaa Nelly!!

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by ABoselli

Fouls by the defense in their own end zone are enforced from the goal line.

Aboselli, this foul was by the defense in A's end zone. Same rule?

I always thought a foul by B behind the neutral zone was enforced from the previous spot?

[Edited by Derock1986 on Jan 2nd, 2003 at 10:23 AM]

[bigwhistle]

NCAA rules.....

After all is said and done, A has the ball 1st and 10 from the 9 yard line. Run ended behind LOS, therefore penalty is enforced from previous spot. That is the purpose of the beanbag, to mark the end of the related run. After awarding automatic first down for the PF against B, the dead ball foul against A would be addressed. Half the distance to the goal line, A1 taking the rest of the game off, and then setting the chains first and 10.

[James Neil]

Originally posted by Derock1986

Aboselli, this foul was by the defense in A's end zone. Same rule?

I always thought a foul by B behind the neutral zone was enforced from the previous spot?

[Edited by Derock1986 on Jan 2nd, 2003 at 10:23 AM]

Derock,
Derock,
The netural zone has nothing to do with enforcing any foul by either A or B .
The “all-but-one” principle determines the spot of enforcement and is based upon knowing who committed the foul and where the foul was committed relative to the basic spot of enforcement.
To use this principal you must know the difference between a loose ball play and a running play and how to find the basic spot . If a foul occurs during a down, the basic spot of enforcement is determined by the action that was occurring at the time of the foul.
The basic spot is the previous spot for a foul which occurs simultaneously with the snap or free kick , or a foul which occurs during a loose ball play. There is one exception to this enforcement when the foul is roughing the passer.
The basic spot is the spot where the related run ends for a foul which occurs during a running play.
The basic spot is the succeeding spot, (where the ball would next be snapped or free-kicked ) for an unsportsmanlike foul, for a dead ball foul, for a nonplayer foul or when the final result of the play is a touchback and the ‘normal’ basic spot would have been the end of the run. All fouls are enforced from th basic spotexecpt fouls by the offence (team in possession of the ball) behind the basic spot which are enforced from the spot of the foul

[AndrewMcCarthy]

NFHS 10-5-3: The enforcement spot for any foul by the defense is the goal line when the run ends in the end zone and would result in a safety.

Uh-oh! The run ended in the end zone but this play does not result in a safety!

By the way- isn't this a loose-ball play?!?! A fumble by A behind the NZ prior to change of team possession.

Therefore we enforce B's foul from the original LOS then administer the dead ball foul against A.

[Edited by AndrewMcCarthy on Jan 2nd, 2003 at 12:05 PM]

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by James Neil

Derock,
Derock,
The netural zone has nothing to do with enforcing any foul by either A or B .
The “all-but-one” principle determines the spot of enforcement and is based upon knowing who committed the foul and where the foul was committed relative to the basic spot of enforcement.
To use this principal you must know the difference between a loose ball play and a running play and how to find the basic spot . If a foul occurs during a down, the basic spot of enforcement is determined by the action that was occurring at the time of the foul.
The basic spot is the previous spot for a foul which occurs simultaneously with the snap or free kick , or a foul which occurs during a loose ball play. There is one exception to this enforcement when the foul is roughing the passer.
The basic spot is the spot where the related run ends for a foul which occurs during a running play.
The basic spot is the succeeding spot, (where the ball would next be snapped or free-kicked ) for an unsportsmanlike foul, for a dead ball foul, for a nonplayer foul or when the final result of the play is a touchback and the ‘normal’ basic spot would have been the end of the run. All fouls are enforced from th basic spotexecpt fouls by the offence (team in possession of the ball) behind the basic spot which are enforced from the spot of the foul

Mr Neil,
As I read the "All-but-one" principal, it appears to me that this principal has more to do with "where" you spot the ball than where you enforce the penalty. I'm learning...

[JMN]

Andrew,

I disagree with using the original LOS as the basic spot. My take is that this is a running play that ended in the end zone and that the foul was a live ball foul. Thus, I would enforce it from the goal line like Mr. Sears suggested.

I ran this through my mind as a play starting on the A20 yard line with the B facemask foul on the A15 and loose ball rolling out on the A18. Without the goal line to worry about, I would mark the end of the run at the A15 and use that as the enforcement spot for B's live ball foul. Or, A could decline the foul (dumb)and take the result play.

If I messed this up, let me know.

Good post, AB.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Originally posted by JMN


I ran this through my mind as a play starting on the A20 yard line with the B facemask foul on the A15 and loose ball rolling out on the A18. Without the goal line to worry about, I would mark the end of the run at the A15 and use that as the enforcement spot for B's live ball foul. Or, A could decline the foul (dumb)and take the result play.

Sorry, but it's still a loose-ball play as defined in the book- A fumble by A behind the NZ prior to change of team possession INCLUDING the run that preceeds such fumble.

In your play we'd enforce B's foul from the 20 then administer the dead ball foul against A.

[ABoselli]

so if A1 has a 2-7, runs 5 yards and fumbles 4 yards and OB. That would be a 1-10 since the ball went 9 yards?


Yes, it would.

But back to the enforcement - I was wrong. Since it's a loose ball play, we have to enforce from the previous spot. If he had been tackled by the face mask and not fumbled, it would be a safety and then we would enforce from the goal line. The case book has a play almost identical to this one. (maybe that's where I got the idea!)

Sorry, my bad.

[Edited by ABoselli on Jan 2nd, 2003 at 02:00 PM]

[JMN]

Andrew,

You're right! I got so involved in the details that I neglected to reconcile the fumble behind the LOS. For anyone interested, this is a loose ball play according to 10-3-1c.

Thanks, Andrew.

[James Neil]

Mr Neil,
As I read the "All-but-one" principal, it appears to me that this principal has more to do with "where" you spot the ball than where you enforce the penalty. I'm learning... [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes you are learning old buddy, but I'm sad to report.....you got it WRONG AGAIN! LOL just kidding you 8^)
Seriously, the "all but one" and the basic spot are for EFORCEMENT purposes only. Read my post and try to visualize all this, step by step in your mind.


"All but One"
The “all-but-one” principle determines the spot of enforcement and is based upon knowing WHO committed the foul and WHERE the foul was committed relative to the basic spot of enforcement. Here’s what it says:

“All-but-one” Principle
If the foul was by…the Defense…and it occurred…Beyond the Basic Spot…then enforce the penalty from…the Basic Spot
~~~~~~~~
If the foul was by…the Defense…and it occurred...Behind the Basic Spot...then enforce the penalty from…the Basic Spot
~~~~~~~~
If the foul was by…the Offense...and it occurred...Beyond the Basic Spot...then enforce the penalty from...the Basic Spot
~~~~~~~~~
If the foul was by the Offense...and it occurred...Behind the Basic Spot...then enforce the penalty from...the Spot of the Foul

All situations except one are enforced from the basic spot. The exception is a foul by the offense that occurs behind the basic spot. Then you enforce from the spot of the foul. That’s why it’s important that on live ball player fouls to throw your flag to the spot of the foul.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

BTW...
I'm very glad to see you've slowed down enough to try to learn and understand how all this really works. This isn't easy. It takes a lot of hard work. It's a no-brainer to suit up and run around the field looking like you know what your doing in front of those who haven’t a clue as to the rules or how this is done properly .I work my a$$ off studying this stuff and still kick em once in a while (as we all have seen 8^). but I keep at it because none of us are bigger then the game Derock, and we owe it to all those involved to get it right and be as professional as we can while doing it. Learning the rules and mechanics provided to us by the Feds is going provide you a better foundation upon which you'll sharpen your "game sense" and learn how to better apply your judgment. This is probably the hardest part to understand but once you get it things will start to fall into place. Next thing you need to do is learn how to find the basic spot. We do this by determining what type of play was in progress at the time of that foul, either a loose ball play or a running play. But that’s another day.
Keep up the good work.

[Theisey]

Originally posted by shocker
ABoselli...so if A1 has a 2-7, runs 5 yards and fumbles 4 yards and OB. That would be a 1-10 since the ball went 9 yards?

For NFHS that is correct with the clock on the snap.
For NCAA the ball is returned to the spot of the fumble (at your trusty bean bag spot), the clock is on the ready and it would be 3rd and 2.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by AndrewMcCarthy
By the way- isn't this a loose-ball play?!?! A fumble by A behind the NZ prior to change of team possession.

Therefore we enforce B's foul from the original LOS then administer the dead ball foul against A.

Yep, you are correct. Thanks for pointing this out. Good post!

I'm still learning.

[sportswriter]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee As a matter of interest, Canadian amateur rules would dictate:

We have fouls by both teams: B UR - facemask (7.3.5), A RP (7.2.2). This is a dual foul (8.6.1), only if both teams accept the penalties (8.6.2a). Let's assume that this happends; then: the POA is at the PLS, or the end of the run, at A's option (8.6.3).

It likely wouldn't be at the "end of the run", because that would be a safety - ball fumbled from the endzone out into the field of play and then out of bounds, without touching. A has to accept the penalty to avoid the safety, and they have to accept it either (a) at the goal line or (b) at the line of scrimmage. (Canadian ruling)

[/QUOTE]
distance back to the goal line for the A RP. 11 + 15 = 26, then to the 13. 1st and 10 for A.
[/B][/QUOTE]

The only issue here is interpretive, and I doubt it a difficult one. Is the punch/swear word a UR/Objectionable, a Rough Play/Objectionable, or a Rough Play alone.

I'd adjudicate it a Rough Play alone, *UNLESS* the "bad word" was a racial or religious slur, in which case, I get out the objectionable - or worse.

A) A1's actions are considered Rough Play alone:

Ball goes from the three to the 18 (3+15) for the B UR, then half the distance for the RP = at the nine yard line, third down repeated.

C) As above - same result, as the RP is only half the distance to the goal.

B) A1's actions are considered to be UR + Objectionable
Ball goes from the three to the 18 for the B UR, then half the distance for the 15-yard (nine yard line) then half the distance for the additive Objectionable (which in Canadian is just ten yards, btw), ergo, third down on the 4.5 yard line.

Clear as mud? Welcome to Canadian ball.