"All But One" .....official left .....what wii you do ?

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by DrMooreReferee
Take some time to study that rulebook at every opportunity you have. And then come back and battle these guys if you like. But until then, they will continue to carve you up like a christmas turkey if you don't know the rules.


The Doctor

Doc, very well said and you're right. I'm getting carved up and spit out and receiving far too much attention to be the "anti-ref". These guys thrive on quoting the rules and I can understand why but being a rules expert does not always equate into being a great official. Actually, some of these guys are probably sitting their with the rule book open as they respond to these posts so I don't think that qualifies them as a rule expert. Unfortunately, you won't have that rule book open when you're officiating the game. I read the NFHS rule book once a year before the season begins and refer to it during the season on certain rules clarification. Believe me, I know the rules I just don't have a rule book to quote from (can't find it--looked every where for it since I started posting on this forum). Because I can't find my rule book, I'm not doing so well in this forum but I will get another one and beat Mr Neil and a few others over the head with it the way they did me. Maybe then I will be able to build more credibility as an official in this forum. Until then, I will "try" to resist the urge to express my views unsupported by the rule book.

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

Derock,

why after 7 years as an official aren't you doing high school games???


don't tell me you don't want to.

I think we all know why

[ABoselli]

I don't have my book open to refer to when posting. I know the rules because I think it's important to know the rules. Just like the kids think its important to practice to play the game, I think its important to practice to officiate it. Imagine a QB who gives the playbook a passing glance but would rather rely on his 'game sense' to carry the day. "Don't worry coach, you get too bogged down in plays and such, all you need is game sense!"

If you put enough time and discussion into it, you will learn them and be able to apply them when on the field. A good feel for the game is always wrapped around a solid knowledge of the rules.

Don't bother with the 'right out of the case book' examples you plan on trotting out. I'll bet most of us here are pretty familiar with them already. Why not try to give yourself a wierd situation and see if you can rule correctly?

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

very good and well stated abosseli, I also liked your post on the other discussion board about how to get rid of a bad crew memeber.

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by ABoselli
I don't have my book open to refer to when posting. I know the rules because I think it's important to know the rules. Just like the kids think its important to practice to play the game, I think its important to practice to officiate it. Imagine a QB who gives the playbook a passing glance but would rather rely on his 'game sense' to carry the day. "Don't worry coach, you get too bogged down in plays and such, all you need is game sense!"

If you put enough time and discussion into it, you will learn them and be able to apply them when on the field. A good feel for the game is always wrapped around a solid knowledge of the rules.

Don't bother with the 'right out of the case book' examples you plan on trotting out. I'll bet most of us here are pretty familiar with them already. Why not try to give yourself a wierd situation and see if you can rule correctly?

Aboselli,
Having a "feel for the game" is what separates the GREAT players from those who are good players. You can study the rules all you want (and you must) but you never elevate your game to the next level until you develop your feel or sense for the game. You see, having "game sense" is knowing when to abandon the rules (or in the case of the QB, when to abandon your pocket protection).

Officiating is pretty much the same. If you want to truly become a great official, know the rules but don't forget your "game sense".

[JMN]

Mr. Derock,

I DISAGREE WITH YOU!! VEHEMENTLY!!!!!!!!

You wrote ..."having "game sense" is knowing when to abandon the rules". Please tell me that you exaggerated your point.

As officials, I don't believe we should ever "abandon the rules", otherwise why are we needed? Aren't we hired to make sure that we control the game and enforce the rules?

We should certainly be judicious in our use of the rules and may CHOOSE not to call a foul if it's immaterial to the play and doesn't constitute a safety issue, but to abandon the rules under a game sense "feel" for the game is not only irresponsible, but absolutely contrary to my understanding of what an official is all about.

I welcome your comment to clarify your point, but if instead you choose to waste this board to justify your position to "abandon the rules", forget about it. There is no way that you will convince me that there is ever a time when it's OK to abandon the rules. Game sense - YES, anarchy - NO

[ABoselli]

I think I have rules knowledge and a feel for the game. My ability to demonstrate this 'feel for the game' is extremely limited if not impossible in this forum. Demonstrating rules knowledge is not - that's why I discuss rules here.

The only way you could tell whether I have a 'feel for the game' is to watch me work. Does my game have good pacing, do I officiate preventively, do I have a rapport with the other officials, players and coaches, am I approachable, how do I respond when something crazy happens, do I hustle, am I in position, is my concentration level high, am I loose etc etc etc... It's like fine art - I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it!

I try to apply the rules fairly and equitably. That sometimes means that the letter of the law isn't followed, but the spirit is. That never means abandoning the rules.

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by HighSchoolWhiteHat
Derock,

why after 7 years as an official aren't you doing high school games???


don't tell me you don't want to.

I think we all know why

I have had the opportunity to do high school but youth fits perfectly into my schedule PLUS I make more money doing youth. On the average, I can make around $2500 for just working Saturdays for 2 1/2 months and then pick up $500-600 more in post season tournaments. Thats around $3000 in one football season. It averages out to about $1000 per month and I only work on Saturdays! What does high school pay?

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by JMN
Mr. Derock,

I DISAGREE WITH YOU!! VEHEMENTLY!!!!!!!!

You wrote ..."having "game sense" is knowing when to abandon the rules". Please tell me that you exaggerated your point.

As officials, I don't believe we should ever "abandon the rules", otherwise why are we needed? Aren't we hired to make sure that we control the game and enforce the rules?

We should certainly be judicious in our use of the rules and may CHOOSE not to call a foul if it's immaterial to the play and doesn't constitute a safety issue, but to abandon the rules under a game sense "feel" for the game is not only irresponsible, but absolutely contrary to my understanding of what an official is all about.

I welcome your comment to clarify your point, but if instead you choose to waste this board to justify your position to "abandon the rules", forget about it. There is no way that you will convince me that there is ever a time when it's OK to abandon the rules. Game sense - YES, anarchy - NO

JMN, relax...good air in, bad air out. Again...breath.

Sorry, maybe "abandon" is a bad choice of wording. What I mean is you need to know when an "adjustment" from the normal way of business is necessary. Better?


[Edited by Derock1986 on Dec 27th, 2002 at 04:02 PM]

[DrMooreReferee]

Derock,
Even an adjustment to the rules is really UNacceptable. Rules are the very foundation of the way an official conducts his business. The way JMN stated it was pretty good. Sometimes even if you see a hold you don't call it. If the hold is not affecting the play OR if the game is 50-0, those are good times to keep the flag in your pocket. Now, sometimes you see a block below the waist that doesn't affect the play, but you SHOULD still call it. Regardless of the score or play situation, SAFETY is paramount. Thats another good statement to live by.

Chill out Derock.

The Doctor

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by DrMooreReferee
Derock,
Even an adjustment to the rules is really UNacceptable. Rules are the very foundation of the way an official conducts his business. The way JMN stated it was pretty good. Sometimes even if you see a hold you don't call it. If the hold is not affecting the play OR if the game is 50-0, those are good times to keep the flag in your pocket. Now, sometimes you see a block below the waist that doesn't affect the play, but you SHOULD still call it. Regardless of the score or play situation, SAFETY is paramount. Thats another good statement to live by.

Chill out Derock.

The Doctor

Doc,
I would never have a game that is 50-0 because I will not allow a team to embarrass or humiliate another team that way. In youth, a team with a 4 TD lead clearly has an advantage in player size and/or skill so they will get the win but I'll use my flag to slow them down and make sure they don't run up the score. The winning coach doesn't like it but he understands and will appreciate it even more when he himself is on the other end watching his kids get pushed all over the field. You guys must understand...I call YOUTH games. You can't officiate a youth game the same way you do high schoolers. When doing youth, making "adjustments" at times, is necessary. For instance, if I have a kid on the line who can't sit still I can't penalize the team every play (well, I could but what sense would that make?) I will have to make an adjustment to the rules and ALLOW the lineman some movement or else the offense will NEVER get a play off. If in my judgement, the offense gains an advantage from the movement then I will ask the coach to replace the player. This is why I emphasize game sense so much because you need at all levels but especially in youth.

[JMN]

Derock,

Thanks for clarifying that you didn't really mean "abandon". You meant "adjust". That's a bit better as long as it reconciles with the rules.

I'm not hyperventilating; in fact I was perfectly calm when I replyed to your post. And breathing isn't optional, but thanks for the concern. Also, I agree with you that officiating HS is different than officiating youth ball. Maybe that's one of the reasons you take a lot of heat on this board. Still, you have radical views relating to understanding the rules as compared to most of us.

I too (and would guess most if not all officials) may "find" a penalty when the game is lopsided and beyond competitive. However, I try to minimize them and don't do it to control the score as much as I do the tempo of the game. I may still have a 50-0 game at the youth level, but if I do, the winning coach will get guidance from me to run the ball (and we have a running clock). Derock, I don't believe it's your (our) place to have such a significant impact that you actually materially affect the score. I hope that our "game sense" is consistent and not used to an extreme.

At some point you just have to let the kids play, even if it's a lopsided, ugly, can't wait to get it over game. That's part of the deal you get when you take up officiating.

[James Neil]

This has got to be a joke. Every time this guy posts he comes up with the most outrageous poppycock I’ve ever heard. He tells us what it takes to officiate at a higher level yet he officiates at the lowest. He says he knows the rules but couldn’t find the basic spot if it was pasted to his fore head. He’ll make up his own rules as he sees fit and abandon others he doesn’t agree with. He’ll manipulate the score and tell coaches how to coach all the while DEMANDING their respect. He’s never worked anything but the lowest level of ball, yet he’ll tell us it’s WAY more difficult then HS. I believe he really thinks we know nothing about working youth ball. If I hear about his game sense and how to officiate at this level one more time I think I’ll bust my gut laughing. LOL
There’s no doubt in my mind that there’s not one of us here doing this for the money, yet this guy is bragging about it. This past year I worked about 70 games from Jan through Nov. I worked WH , Ump, both wings and BJ for Pop Warner , Middle School , High School , woman’s-pro , and adult flag.. To do this I had to at times work games 5 days out of the week with up to 4 games on Saturday( first game 9:00am leave field 6:00pm). I made approximately 2200 dollars before expenses.
Unless Maryland plays youth ball year round this guy’s numbers just don’t add up.

Gentleman, if this guy isn’t just playing a huge joke on us and is actually serious, then he must officiate in Bizarro Land in a parallel universe where they do everything backward. If not, we must be afraid, be very afraid!!!!!!! Because……………

THE ANTI-REF HAS COME AND THE END IS AT HAND!

LOL…. 8^)…. LOL

[DrMooreReferee]

Guys....I have to give you this play that really still bothers me still today. I made a big mistake and it sort of coincides with what we are talking about here.

I made the move to white hat 2 yrs ago. I love it and wouldn't want to do anything else. Was an umpire before that. I had a full varsity schedule this past season and had a blast at the referee position. Now, with that said, allow me to tell you guys what a bonehead thing I did in a youth game.

This game was between 2 very good 12 yr old teams. The game was everything it was cracked up to be. Hard fought battle to the bitter end. In fact, we went to overtime. In our youth leagues, we play off just like a high school game. Put it on the 10 yard line, and each team gets a turn. And we continue this until we get a winner. The first team that took their turn was UNable to score. The other team got their turn. And on 4th down the QB executed an awesome fake sweep to the left, tucked the ball to his side and pranced into the endzone UNTOUCHED. Oh, I almost forgot, all the while he's shaking the ball in the face of a defender who was trying to catch up. As you may have already guessed, I threw my flag on it. As the flag was flying through the air, I wished I could somehow make it fly back into my hand. But, I was unable to get it back. So, I had to give the signal for unsportsmanlike conduct and also the uplifted arms that shows the touchdown STILL stood. The crowd absolutely booed me off the field. I felt like crap. The call I made was a good call, under the rules. However, I should have had the sense to keep it in my pocket. And then go over and counsel the kid.

Sometimes we make mistakes. I wish I hadn't thrown that flag. It didn't matter in the grand scheme of things. It wasn't a safety issue. It didn't allow an unfair advantage for the score. I should've had better "game sense" than to do that. However, in my defense, I'm glad I knew the rules backwards and forwards so that I didn't make it worse. For instance, what if I had taken the touchdown away in that instance? The coach was begging me to do so. He was arguing that the flag came out before the touchdown was scored. He was absolutely correct, it did happen before the kid crossed the goal line. But, as most of us know, that doesn't matter.

It was mistake that I made. But had I not known the rules, I would have REALLY messed it up BIGTIME.

Sorry for such a long post guys.


The Doctor

[James Neil]

good post Doc. Shows how we learn no matter how long one's been doing this .I have a similar story and want to hear what you guys think . But it’ll have to wait . Got's to do the honey-do’s ;^) BRB