penalty enforcement

[ABoselli]

Are you telling me if a player was lying on the ground and stuck he leg or foot out to try and make a tackle, thats legal?

The short answer? Yep.

As for kicking and tripping being one and the same (somebody wrote that a few posts ago), that's just plain nuts. The signal for tripping is there so when, let's say, lineman A6 sees he's not going to get to blitzing LB B8, he sticks his big beefy leg out and LB B8 trips over it and hits the ground. Thud. Flag. Now on the next play, when running back A2 is going through the hole and LB B8, still seething from the trip administered previously by A6, sticks his leg out and trips the speedy A2, nice play, spot the ball, blow it ready, play on. You may want to take a peek inside the rule book from time to time as it can dispel myths like this. Anything that comes after the statement, "I don't need to look in the rule book" or "I've officiated long enough to know blah blah blah" has a good chance of being wrong.

I don't know everything, but I know I don't know everything. Even things I'm pretty sure of, I look up because I owe it to the players to be as right as I can be.

[Edited by ABoselli on Dec 5th, 2002 at 08:30 PM]

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Derock1986

Ed, the way I signal the enforcement is:

There was a double foul on the play,
lst foul was a live ball foul, pass interference on the defense--15 yard penalty (for you, my league this is a 10 yard penalty) from the previous spot and an automatic first down!
The second foul was a dead ball foul occurring after the play was over, unsportsmanlike on the offense, the player was ejected for throwing a punch--15 yard penalty from the gaining spot.
1st and 25!

I forgot the chains. Oh yeah, technically it is not a double foul since there is a live ball foul followed by a dead ball foul. They must be enforced separately. I ALWAYS do it that way, some officials don't. I like to develop habits mechanically so that when the time comes it is routine.

Here is my complete dialogue.

I tell my linesman and umpire to walk off fifteen yards, set the stakes and wait for me to signal the first foul.

I then explain the penalty, "There were multiple penalties (technically, there was not but most fans and coaches don't know the difference). They will be enforced separately. There was a live ball foul for defensive pass interference. That is a 15-yard penalty with an automatic first down. (Linesman and umpire complete walk off and set stakes)."

Then walk back to the enforcement spot which will become the succeeding spot. "Following the end of the play, there was a personal foul against the defense for striking an opponent, the player has been disqualified. Following enforcement of all penalties, it is first down and ten from this spot." Then have the linesman and umpire come to the spot.

I really cannot think of a better way to do this to let everybody know that all penalties are being enforced.

[Theisey]

Originally posted by Theisey

Do you have the "comic book". I'm darn sure there is a dead ball enforcement against Team-A in which they show the chains being set AFTER the enforcement.
There is a lot of good pics in that much maligned manual.

See page 46 of this seasons NF comnic book pic 5-3-1 and apply that to you play.

Also find in your rule book, football fundamental IX.2. While your in the area, check out 10-2-4.
Can't get any clearer then that.

[DrMooreReferee]

Wow!!!

I can't believe there is even a discussion about tripping the runner. The runner is the ONLY player who can be legally tripped. And yes, the defender can stick his leg right out there and trip him up. I've seen it a few times, and almost threw my flag once or twice. Why didn't I throw it? Well, I saw a football in the players hands that got tripped, plain and simple.

Rules are rules, whether you agree with them or not.

Oh, I'm a Referee from SC. And I've worked over 300 hundred games in my career.

The Doctor

[Melvin]

SUBJECT: IMPRESS ME WITH KNOWLEDGE NOT CREDENTIALS!!!!!!

since i started this mess i'll attempt to end it.

txmike and theisy, thanks for the info. just because i don't understand a ruling (such as 1st and 10 rather than 1st and 25) doesn't mean that it isn't right. sometimes things sound better to me if they are spoon fed. i will say this, i'll never Begin a NEW series of downs with anything other than 1st and 10!

as for credentials;
h.s. and col. player, near masters degree, own sucessful commercial roofing business which by the way, i frequently have prospective employees suggest that they have been roofing for 20 years and are good at what they do. unlike officials, i can question their judgement and often wonder how someone can be in a trade or vocation for 20 years and still be wrong not knowing correct details or codes. umpired 1,000's(10 yrs) of baseball games jv, v, college. finished at top class at pro school. many post season v and college as well as all star games. 2 years jr high football as v alternate. this is my 1st year as full time v white hat(first time in that position as well). oh, just turned 32.

years and games have done little for me except for provide game experience. proper education from the right people is what has made me a better official/umpire. there are plenty of old charlies that have been working more years and games than me and still believe that they know all of the rules and will argue til their death even after you have proven them wrong. my second year (age 26) in this local umpire association i challenged two vet umpires (15 years plus) who both worked post season and one worked a state final game to throw their wallets on the table over a simple rule disagreement. both backed down. i read them the rule and the top dog said yep, i've been doing it wrong for all these years, the other charlie still didn't believe he was wrong even after the rule was read and the other guy ate crow.

simple philosophy of a friend of mine who has worked a world series; if you are in pickle and are in doubt, common sense and fair play will always bail you out. and having good instincts doesn't hurt.

in MY opinion txmike and Theisy know their stuff (without asking for their credentials) and i'll certainly use them as crutches in the future. thus, one should never throw away thier creditability challenging someones credentials.

P.S. The simple rule was Batters Interference with the Catchers Attempted Throw to retire a runner. Both argued that it was interference when the batter stood in the box when the runner on 2nd advancing to 3rd on pitch and C stood up to throw but did not because B was in the way it was B interference. also argued that if B stepped in front of plate when r on 1st was stealing 2nd it was B int. Rule says ATTEMPTED throw. if C doesn't attempt the throw because B is in the way he is stupid. if he is smart he throws it in the outfield and gets B out and runner(s) return. Sounds like the tripping play. Must know definitions to understand the rule.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Theisey

See page 46 of this seasons NF comnic book pic 5-3-1 and apply that to you play.

Also find in your rule book, football fundamental IX.2. While your in the area, check out 10-2-4.
Can't get any clearer then that.

Yep. First and ten. Comic book reinforces what you said about 1st and ten.

The only way to get 1st and 25 is after the ready for play an A player commits an unsportsmanlike or a personal foul before the snap.

BTW. The reason I would set the chains twice comes with experience. My first season as a white hat I had a play like the one described. I had the first walk off. Then the second walk off returned to the same spot. Then I set the chains. It was assumed I was confused when the mechanic was by the book. Of course, the average coach and the fans of the little burg we were working had no idea. You learn by experience.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by DrMooreReferee
Wow!!!

I can't believe there is even a discussion about tripping the runner. The runner is the ONLY player who can be legally tripped. And yes, the defender can stick his leg right out there and trip him up. I've seen it a few times, and almost threw my flag once or twice. Why didn't I throw it? Well, I saw a football in the players hands that got tripped, plain and simple.

Rules are rules, whether you agree with them or not.

Oh, I'm a Referee from SC. And I've worked over 300 hundred games in my career.

The Doctor

Neither can I, Doc. It's not a foul to trip a runner, no matter what part of your body you useto do it. That's incredible that there are football officials who think this is a foul. I would love to know what rule reference or case play they base this belief on.

BTW, where are you in SC?

[DrMooreReferee]

Easley,SC

Not too far from Greenville or Anderson. Kinda betwixed in between the two.

The Doctor

[TXMike]

Hey Boselli....Can YOU really trip a runner with your tongue or is that just some more macho Italian Stallion BS????

[ABoselli]

Not since they made me wear a mouthguard. I was going to use another piece of anatomy for emphasis, but I figured it would be too ribald.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

WHOH, NELLIE!! BOSELLI REALLY GOT HIS LICKS IN ON THAT PLAY!!