penalty enforcement

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by Theisey
Where did you come with this 10 yard PI penalty from?

Regardless, team-A will have it 1/10 not 1/25. The rules covering that changed at least 5 years ago, maybe more

Oops! Read it wrong--thought a had the ball on B's 20. For what its worth, the youth league I officiate in using NFHS rules, pass interference is a 10 yard penalty from the previous spot, automatic first down. Second, the dead ball penalty occurred after the play was over. This is a double foul. You enforce the live ball penalty first. Team a has an automatic first down (1st and 10 at the 30, set the chains). Then you enforce the dead ball foul. 15 yards unsportsmanlike for throwing a punch and ejection of player (1st and 25 at the 15). If I'm incorrect, please correct me with the correct NFHS rule.

[TXMike]

Part of the beauty of these discussion forums is you get a chance to learn, if you just take advantage of it. If you went back through this thread and looked at the other responses from folks who are generally recognized as people who know what they are talking about in their particular codes, you would already know the correct answer.

These forums are not like tests where we give an answer and have no way of knowing if the answer is right or not. We can give an answer without looking at the answers but then we can look at the other answers to see if we got it right or wrong.

PS: If Tom Heisey says something, you can take it to the bank!

[Theisey]

Yer too kind Mike. While I'd like to believe I can get it right all the time, I know that isn't the case.
(I'm still pouring over those dang fumble plays Rom posted).

One thing for sure, no matter how long one has been at this game, there is always something new to learn or relearn.

...and by the way, when you guys read a post by TXmike, it is right on for NCAA rules.

One last thing, it's snowing kinda hard right now! Those Texas winds must have started blowing it up here.

[Ed Hickland]

This forum can make you think.

I am thinking about how to signal the enforcement.

1) Walk off 15 yards from the previous spot and signal pass interference and first down for automatic first down.

2) Then walk back 15 yards and signal personal foul and disqualification if the player was disqualified.

Of course, I could stand still and give all the signals if there are no half the distance enforcements.

But that might cause confusion with someone thinking the penalty for the personal foul never being enforced.

Anybody got any ideas?

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by TXMike
Part of the beauty of these discussion forums is you get a chance to learn, if you just take advantage of it. If you went back through this thread and looked at the other responses from folks who are generally recognized as people who know what they are talking about in their particular codes, you would already know the correct answer.

These forums are not like tests where we give an answer and have no way of knowing if the answer is right or not. We can give an answer without looking at the answers but then we can look at the other answers to see if we got it right or wrong.

PS: If Tom Heisey says something, you can take it to the bank!

I'm sure Tom Heisey and yourself are very good at what you do and I'm not here to challenge anyone's knowlege as a game official. I'm simply providing my comments/views on the posts in this forum just like all the other officials. I'll be the first to admit I'm not always right and I certainly don't know every rule in the rule book nor can I quote a rule without having looking it up first but I am a seven year veteran official who has officiated over 490 football games under NFHS rules. Furthermore, just because you know all the rules and can quote them from rule book doesn't make you a good official. So if you know the rule from the NFHS rule book that says I'm incorrect, please let me know where it is--just want to read the rule for myself.

[TXMike]

Originally posted by Derock1986
[/B]

I'll be the first to admit I'm not always right and I certainly don't know every rule in the rule book nor can I quote a rule without having looking it up first but I am a seven year veteran official who has officiated over 490 football games under NFHS rules. Furthermore, just because you know all the rules and can quote them from rule book doesn't make you a good official. So if you know the rule from the NFHS rule book that says I'm incorrect, please let me know where it is--just want to read the rule for myself. [/B][/QUOTE]

I never commented on your abilities but since you have chosen to call yourself a vet, I have to say this...(and I only say it because I am sick of "vets" who think they should be listened to because they are "vets",not that that applies to you.) If you have reffed for 7 years and have that much experience (490 games), and you do not know this very simple enforcement, i.e. not setting the chains until all the fouls are dealt with, then you have MAJOR problems. Furthermore, if you have that much experience and do not even know where to find the rule in your own rulebook, you have even MORE MAJOR problems. I am not saying just because someone knows the rules backwards and forwards he is going to be a good or great official, but if an official does not know the rules, he will never be anything beyond medioocre. (And I should add...if a guy has reffed 490 games, or 49000 games, but has done them incorrectly, is he really "experienced"????)

Oh yeah, and like I said...if you had looked at the thread you would have seen one of your fellow Fed guys posted the rule reference back on Dec 4 at 1050. (2-25-5)

[Edited by TXMike on Dec 5th, 2002 at 10:17 AM]

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by Ed Hickland
This forum can make you think.

I am thinking about how to signal the enforcement.

1) Walk off 15 yards from the previous spot and signal pass interference and first down for automatic first down.

2) Then walk back 15 yards and signal personal foul and disqualification if the player was disqualified.

Of course, I could stand still and give all the signals if there are no half the distance enforcements.

But that might cause confusion with someone thinking the penalty for the personal foul never being enforced.

Anybody got any ideas?

Ed, the way I signal the enforcement is:

There was a double foul on the play,
lst foul was a live ball foul, pass interference on the defense--15 yard penalty (for you, my league this is a 10 yard penalty) from the previous spot and an automatic first down!
The second foul was a dead ball foul occurring after the play was over, unsportsmanlike on the offense, the player was ejected for throwing a punch--15 yard penalty from the gaining spot.
1st and 25!

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by TXMike

Furthermore, if you have that much experience and do not even know where to find the rule in your own rulebook, you have even MORE MAJOR problems. I am not saying just because someone knows the rules backwards and forwards he is going to be a good or great official, but if an official does not know the rules, he will never be anything beyond medioocre. (And I should add...if a guy has reffed 490 games, or 49000 games, but has done them incorrectly, is he really "experienced"????)

[Edited by TXMike on Dec 5th, 2002 at 10:11 AM] [/B]

Come on Mike, I never said I couldn't find the rule. I'm simply saying if you know for a fact that what I'm saying is incorrect, correct me by providing the rule location from the NFHS rule book that makes what I'm saying incorrect otherwise, its one official's judgement or view against another. Being official's we tend to be very defensive about rules of the game because we get challenged so much by coaches, players, and other officials that we have conditioned ourselves to stand firm on our views or rule interpretation UNLESS you prove that i'm wrong by producing the rule from the rule book. I'm not trying to say you're right or wrong but if you're going to say I don't know what I'm talking about, I would prefer you quote the rule authority. No disrespect to you or thiesey but I wear black and white stripes just like you do and even though I'm sure your word is "good as gold" or "you can take your word to the bank", you need to have a rule book out if you're going to challenge me.

[TXMike]

Well now that the rule has been produced for you, are you still saying the others are wrong and you are right??

And if you were a truly good official you would not make someone else find the rule, you would find it yourself, and then you would know if you were right or wrong. If you can't find it, and you ask for help finding it, that is one thing. But sounds like to me that is not your position. You would rather say that you are right because you have 490 games under your belt and daring someone to prove you wrong.

Heck awhile back you were saying that tripping a runner was illegal. And this from a "vet" official??? You might want to spend sometime this offseason perusing that little ole book.

[Edited by TXMike on Dec 5th, 2002 at 10:50 AM]

[ABoselli]

Not to nitpick, but it's not a double foul as a live ball foul cannot be paired with a dead ball foul to make a double foul situation. Each is enforced.

I know it's a small detail, but a lot (enforcement choices or lack of choices) can hinge on the terminology here.

PS If this ground has already been plowed, so sorry.

[Theisey]

Mike works NCAA code for the high schools in Texas.
I doubt he has a copy of the NFHS rules.

Season is over, so I don't carry them with me anymore, but I can be more than happy to point you to the references later. Probably long after someone else provides it.

Do you have the "comic book". I'm darn sure there is a dead ball enforcement against Team-A in which they show the chains being set AFTER the enforcement.
There is a lot of good pics in that much maligned manual.

As Al pointed out, this is not a double foul. Please go check the definitions for this and also see rule 10. Maybe you'll see the light.

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by TXMike
Well now that the rule has been produced for you, are you still saying the others are wrong and you are right??

[Edited by TXMike on Dec 5th, 2002 at 10:50 AM]

Mike, I don't ever recall saying you or anyone here was wrong. My next post on this subject will be a quote from the NFHS rule book.

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

derock,
dpi, in nfhs is a 15 yards penalty from the previuos spot and an automatic 1st down.

7 years and 490 games and you thought it was a 10 yard penalty and auto 1st down?

[Theisey]

Easy HSWH, it was later stated that this is a "youth" rule modification. I wonder how many other modifications to what we call the NF rules also apply.

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

txmike,

are you saying that tripping is legal?