N. Carolina/Tennessee

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The head lineman threw the flag for illegal subsitution because there were four Tar Heels still running off the field when the ball was snapped. I don't think the R or U counted the players in the formation.

I was real disappointed the UT Qb wasn't flagged for the double throat slash he gave to the Carolina sideline. Somebody's gotta see that and make the call.

True, but justice was served in the 2nd OT with the pick.

[rulesmaven]

Really interesting discussion about the participation v. formation question.

After the game, the Tennessee coach was making the point that the NFL has a 10 second run off for this situation, but I'm not sure he was right. I think the NFL rule only applies to motion penalties, but not formation. (I'm not sure about participation.)

Anyway, this got me to thinking about a question for these sorts of end of game situations. If you're ok with a 5 yard penalty and out of time outs, why go through the effort of lining up in a regular formation at all? Suppose you make a play down the field with very little time left that doesn't stop the clock? (Maybe it was a 1st and 20 and you only get 18 or something.) Rather than running your linemen all the way to the line, just coach them to stand still. The player who had the ball can just run up to the spotted ball and snap it to another player -- say, a receiver who is also downfield with him to clock the ball.

So long as everyone is still, would this work or be anything other than a formation penalty? Even if everyone is not still, it's still only 5 yarder, right? (Although in the NFL, you have the 10 second run off.) Could save 10 seconds or so. I always see teams in the situation run the line and get everyone set before they snap and clock -- even after a first down where the clock stops until the ready signal, they lose several seconds. Why bother if you're ok with 5 yards?

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by rulesmaven

Really interesting discussion about the participation v. formation question.

After the game, the Tennessee coach was making the point that the NFL has a 10 second run off for this situation, but I'm not sure he was right. I think the NFL rule only applies to motion penalties, but not formation. (I'm not sure about participation.)

Anyway, this got me to thinking about a question for these sorts of end of game situations. If you're ok with a 5 yard penalty and out of time outs, why go through the effort of lining up in a regular formation at all? Suppose you make a play down the field with very little time left that doesn't stop the clock? (Maybe it was a 1st and 20 and you only get 18 or something.) Rather than running your linemen all the way to the line, just coach them to stand still. The player who had the ball can just run up to the spotted ball and snap it to another player -- say, a receiver who is also downfield with him to clock the ball.

So long as everyone is still, would this work or be anything other than a formation penalty? Even if everyone is not still, it's still only 5 yarder, right? (Although in the NFL, you have the 10 second run off.) Could save 10 seconds or so. I always see teams in the situation run the line and get everyone set before they snap and clock -- even after a first down where the clock stops until the ready signal, they lose several seconds. Why bother if you're ok with 5 yards?

Because there is a rule that if you intentionally conserve or consume time illegally the R has the authority to rule the clock started or stopped. He could enforce the penalty and start the clock again immediately. It still may work to the benefit of the offense in your scenario but not as well as you think.

[TXMike]

Many of used to go with that "refere's discretion" on the clock. However, a 2009 bulletin removed that discretion with this play:

7. Third and seven at the B-35. The game clock is running late in the first half of a tie game. (a) The quarterback spikes the ball as soon as he receives the direct snap, and Team A is flagged for an illegal shift because not all eleven players stopped for a full second before the snap. When the ball becomes dead the game clock is stopped at 0:09. (b) A79 commits a false start and the officials correctly shut down the play, stopping the game clock, which reads 0:09.
RULING: (a) Team B will likely decline the penalty and accept the result of the play, which brings up fourth down. Regardless of Team B’s decision about the penalty, the game clock starts on the snap due to the incomplete pass. (b) Team B will likely accept the penalty since the next play will be third down whether the penalty is accepted or declined. Regardless of Team B’s decision about the penalty, the clock starts on the ready-for-play signal because it was stopped only to complete the penalty. (3-3-2-d-4, 3-3-2-e-4, AR 7-3-2-VIII)

This is BS and we need a rule change to clean this up

[RealityCheck]

If no one on the field counted the UNC players in formation, then the replay booth should have. That was a 15-yard illegal participation foul without question.

Both college and NFL rules create the chaos in end-of-half situations, and both sets of rules are bad. Both players and officials are being put into bad situations because of the current rules. I believe CFL timing rules should be adopted to eliminate the end of game chaos, and this would allow the NFL to get rid of the artificial 10-second runoff.

1) Game clock automatically stops at the end of every play until the ready for play in the last three minutes.
2) If the ball is marked ready for play with time still on the clock, you must RUN THE PLAY even after the clock hits 0:00. This rule would also be in place at the end of the 1st and 3rd quarters. Sick of seeing NFL coaches waving at each other and hitting the locker room with 25 seconds still on the clock when the other team has no timeouts left. College football is getting just as bad.
3) Play clock should be at 25 (it is always 20 in the CFL) in the last three minutes which starts at the ready for play. Tired of seeing 1-score games out of reach with over 2:00 left.
4) Delay of game in the last three minutes should be loss of down on 1st-3rd downs and a 10-yard penalty on 4th down with the clock starting at the snap.
5) Team timeouts per half should be reduced from three to two (you only get one in the CFL).

[silverpie]

I think 3-4-3 should have been applied.

The referee shall order the game clock or play clock started or
stopped whenever either team conserves or consumes playing time by tactics
obviously unfair. This includes starting the game clock on the snap if the foul is
by the team ahead in the score. The game clock will start on the ready-for-play
signal after Team A throws an illegal forward or backward pass to conserve time
(Rule 3-3-2-e-15) (A.R. 3-4-3-I-V).

Snapping a ball that shouldn't even have been snappable (since B had not had the opportunity to counter A's subs) seems to fall into the category of "tactics obviously unfair."

[RealityCheck]

Originally Posted by silverpie

I think 3-4-3 should have been applied.



Snapping a ball that shouldn't even have been snappable (since B had not had the opportunity to counter A's subs) seems to fall into the category of "tactics obviously unfair."

That rule is never enforced in end-of-half situations since it would be unfair to the defense stop the clock and unfair to the offense to allow time to run out. Just points out more that there are too many loopholes in the current rules structure...too many to repair.

Adopting CFL timing rules and maybe even substitution rules...no subs allowed after the officials signal the gates closed just after the ready for play with arms outstretched...is the best answer. Tinkering with the current flawed NCAA and NFL rules will only make the situation worse.

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by silverpie

I think 3-4-3 should have been applied.



Snapping a ball that shouldn't even have been snappable (since B had not had the opportunity to counter A's subs) seems to fall into the category of "tactics obviously unfair."

I agree that the U should have came up over the ball to prevent the snap. If they snap before we are able to get up to the ball to prevent the snap we are supposed to shut it down and have a "do over" to allow B to matchup. But then Team A would still line up and get a play either. Regardless this play will be one talked about next year and will become an education tool to make us all better. That is what we are all trying to do regardless of the level we work.

As for 3-4-3: The bulletin that TXMike posted from NCAA shows that the clock status was proper, even though I disagree with it, but it is the way they want it done so in my games I will follow it just as they did in this game.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by RealityCheck

4) Delay of game in the last three minutes should be loss of down on 1st-3rd downs and a 10-yard penalty on 4th down with the clock starting at the snap.

That makes no sense. There is no down to not be replayed as the down never started. I guess you just want to completely skip a down because of a foul.

[RealityCheck]

Originally Posted by Cobra

That makes no sense. There is no down to not be replayed as the down never started. I guess you just want to completely skip a down because of a foul.

That's exactly how the CFL calls it in "stop time" in the last 3:00 of each half. The right to run the play is lost when the ball isn't snapped in time.

A team shouldn't be rewarded for running time off the clock at the end of a half or game, take a delay penalty, and then still get to run the play over again.