Fake FG Question

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by ajmc

angle has nothing to do with anything,

I can think of no other word for this ... that statement is ASININE. You've almost convinced me that you've never been on the field now.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Since the notion that moving in a few steps when a formation is on the other side of the field, somehow creates an "angle" problem for a wing official is really just silly

What an interesting argument. Change what I say, and then call it silly. Many call that a straw-man argument. I was saying that angle is more important than distance, and creeping out onto the field to get more distance really isn't helping you at all.

[mcarr]

Start off the field, period. Whether you are working 3, 4, 5 or 7.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mcarr

Start off the field, period. Whether you are working 3, 4, 5 or 7.

Yeah, I don't see the point of not doing so.

I try not to take games with 3 officials anymore, but one game we had a guy not show up, so we did it with 3. I worked WH and had the other two guys work wing and I spotted the football. I decided I'd rather have to work a bit harder than have the wings feel they needed to pinch in unnecessarily to spot the ball and get in the way. Besides, it got me a little more exercise, which is always a good thing.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

What an interesting argument. Change what I say, and then call it silly. Many call that a straw-man argument. I was saying that angle is more important than distance, and creeping out onto the field to get more distance really isn't helping you at all.

Mike, I didn't change anything you said. I can understand "upon further review" you might want to. If you believe "angle" is more important than distance, and creeping out onto the field to get more distance really isn't helping you at all", that's fine, but doesn't therefore make it universal, or accurate for all and every situation.

The "straw man" in this argument is the notion of "angle". Despite it's importance in many other aspects of what we do, it's simply not a significant factor in what we were originally discussing. I tried to be very clear that I agreed with starting out on a sideline is absolutely the basic position for a wing official on a Varsity level game, but that adjusting that positioning for specific formations and specific situations is absolutely NOT the WRONG thing to do. If that's your preference, fine, knock yourself out, but castigating others for differing with your assessment places you out beyond the reach of your own headlights.

As for camping on the sideline at the Youth Football level, while judgment and judicious application is always paramount, camping on a sideline at these levels is an effective way to take yourself completely out of the game.

As for 3 man configurations; I'm embarrassed to admit we still work 3 man at sub-varsity levels, and have so for over 40 years. We have tried every variation and repositioning possible, from the standard R-U-L to the recommended goal line formations of R-L-LJ throuout the game, and after all these years of application and testing variations have concluded (beyond the shadow of a doubt) 3 man mechanics is simply inadequate and long obsolete for today's game. You just can't draw a diamond with only 3 dots. Either a flank is exposed or the middle winds up being ignored, and trying to split the Umpire between both usually only produces half a$$ed coverage for both the middle and a sideline. (We've been using 4-man configuration at the Youth Football levels for over a decade).

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ajmc

As for camping on the sideline at the Youth Football level, while judgment and judicious application is always paramount, camping on a sideline at these levels is an effective way to take yourself completely out of the game.

Who's talking about camping out there? There's nothing that prevents an official from coming in when marking a spot or anytime else it's necessary.

*Starting* at the numbers is what we're talking about -- it's just putting yourself closer for no good reason. I can see a hold by my key (tackle) from the sideline just as well as I can from 15 feet closer.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Who's talking about camping out there? There's nothing that prevents an official from coming in when marking a spot or anytime else it's necessary.

*Starting* at the numbers is what we're talking about -- it's just putting yourself closer for no good reason. I can see a hold by my key (tackle) from the sideline just as well as I can from 15 feet closer.

And that pretty much sums up the situation. There is no great advantage gained by a flank official starting the play out in the field but there are a number of potential disadvantages. So why do it?
I can't even fathom how someone could possibly think being correctly at the sideline somehow takes yourself completely out of the game. Almost as bad as stating angle has nothing to do with anything.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by ajmc

As for 3 man configurations; I'm embarrassed to admit we still work 3 man at sub-varsity levels, and have so for over 40 years. We have tried every variation and repositioning possible, from the standard R-U-L to the recommended goal line formations of R-L-LJ throuout the game, and after all these years of application and testing variations have concluded (beyond the shadow of a doubt) 3 man mechanics is simply inadequate and long obsolete for today's game. You just can't draw a diamond with only 3 dots. Either a flank is exposed or the middle winds up being ignored, and trying to split the Umpire between both usually only produces half a$$ed coverage for both the middle and a sideline. (We've been using 4-man configuration at the Youth Football levels for over a decade).

You think that's bad? All of the subvarsity around here is either 3-man or 2-man (yes, there are some smaller schools that will only pay for two officials for a JV game).

It's especially funny to me when coaches come up to me and say something like "My nose tackle is getting held on every play". To which I respnd "Coach, if you want the officials to see and call that, you need to have AT LEAST 3 of us".

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Mike L

And that pretty much sums up the situation. There is no great advantage gained by a flank official starting the play out in the field but there are a number of potential disadvantages. So why do it?
I can't even fathom how someone could possibly think being correctly at the sideline somehow takes yourself completely out of the game. Almost as bad as stating angle has nothing to do with anything.

Apparently, I'm just not being clear enough. If you want to start every play, at every level, in every situation exactly on the sideline, that's what you should do and good luck with it. What you "fathom" about what someone else could possibly think might be correct is likely relevant ONLY to you.

Do us both a favor and drop the "angle" thing, it really has nothing significant to do with what this discussion started about. You can keep trying to change the context to better fit your position but "angle", in the context of the original discussion, remains a non-factor.

A great number of mechanics originally institued at the games higher levels have a very positive benefit and enhance performance when applied at lower levels. However, not all have the same impact or make as significant a difference. With a 4-man crew, when the game is being played around the left hashmark, clinging to the right sideline, for all practical purposes, tends to greatly reduce that officials contribution to the overall crew effort and capability.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

You think that's bad? All of the subvarsity around here is either 3-man or 2-man (yes, there are some smaller schools that will only pay for two officials for a JV game).

It's especially funny to me when coaches come up to me and say something like "My nose tackle is getting held on every play". To which I respnd "Coach, if you want the officials to see and call that, you need to have AT LEAST 3 of us".

I feel for you, having worked 2-man assignments, in the distant past, I understand the effect is little more than herding cats. With 3-man, moving around only serves to create different coverage gaps. After decades of listening to whining about what was missed on, or near, the open sideline, we tried shifting to the recommended "goal line configuration of R-L-LJ, which helps cover the sideline but creates a coverage gap in the middle.

It didn't reduce the whining, just changed it's focus.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Do us both a favor and drop the "angle" thing, it really has nothing significant to do with what this discussion started about. You can keep trying to change the context to better fit your position but "angle", in the context of the original discussion, remains a non-factor.

Angle is quite significant because by starting on the sideline, the official is giving himself a wider angle to view more of the play. As a backside wing with only 3 or 4 officials this is especially important because you are responsible for more of the playing field.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Angle is quite significant because by starting on the sideline, the official is giving himself a wider angle to view more of the play. As a backside wing with only 3 or 4 officials this is especially important because you are responsible for more of the playing field.

I guess it is possible to split a gnat's eyelash, if you really want to.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Apparently, I'm just not being clear enough.

Actually, you've been very clear. The problem is you are clearly wrong about a great many things. You are the one who stated angle does not matter. You are the one who stated sticking to the sideline is an effective way to take yourself out of the game.

With a 4-man crew, when the game is being played around the left hashmark, clinging to the right sideline, for all practical purposes, tends to greatly reduce that officials contribution to the overall crew effort and capability.

Oh I see, it's suddenly changed from taking oneself out of the game to a mere greatly reducing your contribution. Unfortunately for you it remains utter nonsense. There is nothing that is going to happen during a play that I can't see just as well from the sideline as I can from the numbers. But being at the numbers certainly opens up the possibility of getting right in the middle of live ball action. Why take that unnecessary chance?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by ajmc

I guess it is possible to split a gnat's eyelash, if you really want to.

Ugh. There I go thinking I can teach the pig to sing.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Actually, you've been very clear. The problem is you are clearly wrong about a great many things. You are the one who stated angle does not matter. You are the one who stated sticking to the sideline is an effective way to take yourself out of the game.

Sorry, Mike, when you're not trying to talk through your other end, you don't need to fudge with memory. I'm not changing anything. You may have been preoccupied counting commas, or some other silliness, and missed what I stated, so I'll copy it again for you, in full context.

"The "straw man" in this argument is the notion of "angle". Despite it's importance in many other aspects of what we do, it's simply not a significant factor in what we were originally discussing. I tried to be very clear that I agreed with starting out on a sideline is absolutely the basic position for a wing official on a Varsity level game, but that adjusting that positioning for specific formations and specific situations is absolutely NOT the WRONG thing to do. If that's your preference, fine, knock yourself out, but castigating others for differing with your assessment places you out beyond the reach of your own headlights.

As for camping on the sideline at the Youth Football level, while judgment and judicious application is always paramount, camping on a sideline at these levels is an effective way to take yourself completely out of the game." When you try and re-spin things to mean what they were never intended to suggest, you just make yourself look like a dishonest fool.

PS to Mr. Welpe; I've been waiting for a couple of years now for you to mention anything worth learning. All I've noted are your periodic attempts at being a smart-a$$, and even there you're not very creative.