Illegal substitution?

[HLin NC]

If the 12th man goes BACK off and no other player came off, you've got illegal sub under 3-7-3 at least and under 9-6-7d could have illegal participation if "at or immediately before the snap" for using a pretended substitution to deceive. Of course, they is no definition of "immediately" beyond our old 3-5 second rule of thumb.

Case play 3-7-3 C deals with the formation question. The only question I see is had A gone into "formation?" If that 12 player that entered lined up as a receiver or a back, I believe he's bought the farm and somebody else better come out.

[ppaltice]

If A12 lines up or if he communicates with the team, another player must come off. Read 2-32-15 to see what qualifies for being a player. If A12 neither lines up in a position, or communicates with a teammate or official, he can leave with no foul.

[GoodwillRef]

We were told the offense has 3 seconds for the sub to leave the field. If the 12th player stays out more thatn 3 seconds I am flagging it. I don't care if they are in the "hurry up." They are trying to skirt the rules...not on my watch...unfair advantage.

[Coach Jinx]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

We were told the offense has 3 seconds for the sub to leave the field. If the 12th player stays out more thatn 3 seconds I am flagging it. I don't care if they are in the "hurry up." They are trying to skirt the rules...not on my watch...unfair advantage.

the time doesn't start until he communicates with someone, what advantage are they getting? I'm going out on a short limb & saying your totally wrong on this

[Welpe]

Jinx, the time does not start until he becomes a player. If he takes a place in the defensive formation, as it sounds like he is doing here, he would then become a player and then the team would have three seconds to send a replaced player off.

[Coach Jinx]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Jinx, the time does not start until he becomes a player. If he takes a place in the defensive formation, as it sounds like he is doing here, he would then become a player and then the team would have three seconds to send a replaced player off.

WHAT??? Your comment doesn't have anything to do with what I replied to

[Welpe]

It has everything to do with that. Which part do you think does not apply?

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

If A12 lines up or if he communicates with the team, another player must come off. Read 2-32-15 to see what qualifies for being a player. If A12 neither lines up in a position, or communicates with a teammate or official, he can leave with no foul.

You are right that he is not a player until he does those things. But a nonplayer cannot be outside his team box unless to become a player or to return as a replaced player. This guy is not entering the field to become a player, he is entering the field to look at signals. If this were legal a team could have 20 guys run all the way out on the field between downs, not communicate with players nor enter the huddle, and then run all 20 back off the field.