Illegal substitution?
 

Team A runs a no huddle offense but not a hurry up offense.

After each offensive play, a 12th A team member runs onto the field just inside the numbers. As the offense looks over to the bench for the next play to be signaled in, this 12th man may stay on the field and another player may exit, or the 12th may come back off the field, depending on the formation or package that they want on the field for the play signaled in.

Did the entering 12th become a player? I think the only part of 2-32-15 that could apply is if we consider that he was positioned in the formation. If he is, then we know we have a replaced player due to 2-32-12 and we can now hang our hat on the 3 seconds in 4-7-1 or 4-7-3 if he comes back out.

I am curious to see if everyone considers the 12th as having established himself as a player in this situation?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

If the 12th man goes BACK off and no other player came off, you've got illegal sub under 3-7-3 at least and under 9-6-7d could have illegal participation if "at or immediately before the snap" for using a pretended substitution to deceive. Of course, they is no definition of "immediately" beyond our old 3-5 second rule of thumb.

Case play 3-7-3 C deals with the formation question. The only question I see is had A gone into "formation?" If that 12 player that entered lined up as a receiver or a back, I believe he's bought the farm and somebody else better come out.

If A12 lines up or if he communicates with the team, another player must come off. Read 2-32-15 to see what qualifies for being a player. If A12 neither lines up in a position, or communicates with a teammate or official, he can leave with no foul.

We were told the offense has 3 seconds for the sub to leave the field. If the 12th player stays out more thatn 3 seconds I am flagging it. I don't care if they are in the "hurry up." They are trying to skirt the rules...not on my watch...unfair advantage.

the time doesn't start until he communicates with someone, what advantage are they getting? I'm going out on a short limb & saying your totally wrong on this

Jinx, the time does not start until he becomes a player. If he takes a place in the defensive formation, as it sounds like he is doing here, he would then become a player and then the team would have three seconds to send a replaced player off.

WHAT??? Your comment doesn't have anything to do with what I replied to

It has everything to do with that. Which part do you think does not apply?

You are right that he is not a player until he does those things. But a nonplayer cannot be outside his team box unless to become a player or to return as a replaced player. This guy is not entering the field to become a player, he is entering the field to look at signals. If this were legal a team could have 20 guys run all the way out on the field between downs, not communicate with players nor enter the huddle, and then run all 20 back off the field.