Illegal Substitution?

[Viking32]

Time out on the field. A has authorized conference near their sidelines. Warning is given to coaches that the time out is almost over. Team breaks authorized conference and runs directly to the LOS. On their way there, the ready for play is signaled. As they line up, they realize they have 12 on the field. There is a little confusion as to who should leave, so A calls time out. Is this illegal substitution?

They did not "break the huddle" with 12 (it was an authorized conference, not a huddle). I treated it as if A12 ran on the field, realized he shouldn't be there, and started to run off before the time out was called. There was not a snap imminent. Any thoughts? Which rules should be applied in enforcing this one way or the other?

Thanks

[MD Longhorn]

Did they get fully lined up (i.e. "set")? 12 player milling around near the line of scrimmage is not a huddle. Players lined up and set in a situation like this is equivalent to a huddle, and 12 such players is illegal.

[Viking32]

Originally posted by mbcrowder
Did they get fully lined up (i.e. "set")? 12 player milling around near the line of scrimmage is not a huddle. Players lined up and set in a situation like this is equivalent to a huddle, and 12 such players is illegal.

No, they were confused as they walked up to the line. They were not set.

[MD Longhorn]

I don't believe you have a penalty here then... although I do live in NCAA-land, not Fedland.

[sm_bbcoach]

There is no rule about breaking a huddle with 12 men. The ruling uses the word deception. "Any team causing deception " is the wording (not complete). My crew uses this idea: We consider deception (intentional or unintentional) when the teams come to the line and become set. For the O, it is deciving if the QB looks out and someone is where they should not be. The Q may not know which one, but a reciver/blocker will be messed up. We will call this on the D as the QB gets to the line. I know the D can run someone off before the play begins, but this way we will not hit the D with the big 15, only 5. Same for O. IF the come to the line a rusher/defender will look and there will be an extra obstical. Deception. Again, the 5 yrd. IF the player is hauling a$$ off the field, our wings will step out on to the field, and "coach" him to run off behind the LOS. I know stickllers will say this is not good because of teh rule (and I do believe ion rules) I just think I woul dlike to argue to a coach about 5 yrd vs. 15. IF it happens again, I will say something to the coach. If it is genuine mix up, coach get it taken care of right now. If not, coach next time will be 15 on YOU USC.

So, long winded answer to your short question.

[MD Longhorn]

Correct for NF. NCAA - the offense cannot break the huddle with 12. Dead ball immediately if they do so.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Just a piece of advice on crew technique during a timeout: The wing official on that team's sideline should be over near the sideline huddle and ensure that:
* The huddle(s) takes place on the field within 5 yards of sideline
* There are no more than 11 people in the huddle(s).
* That there are no more than 3 attendants in the huddle.
* No players are making use of the coach's headset
* He (official) knows of any substitutions taking place--replaced player leaves the field.
* No players intending to remain in the game leave the field
* The team is prompt in returning to the field when the R informs them that the TO is over.

[BktBallRef]

If there are 12 players on the field, walking to the line, then the defense is placed at a disadvantage by the additional player. "There are too many players, who's going to leave, how can we assign pass coverage responsibility when we don't know who's supposed to be out here?" Whether the deception is intentional or not, it's still exists.

Yes, I have a flag.