NCAA: out of bounds or TD when ball hits the pylon?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You just contradicted yourself.

No I didn't. I provided an example that is contrary to the normal convention. Exactly the same as a ball in possession touching a pylon.

(Note that an UNgrounded punt also has a special rule to apply so that it does get marked where it went out of bounds).

As an aside, how is an ungrounded punt any different from a grounded punt? They are both spotted where the ball crossed the sideline, not where they touched out of bounds.

You posted an AR that was similar to this situation but not the same.

A question for you. Do you consider the pylon as a part of the goal line or the goal line extended?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Welpe

No I didn't. I provided an example that is contrary to the normal convention. Exactly the same as a ball in possession touching a pylon.

Here's what you said: "Consider this, a loose ball (other than a forward pass or forward fumble) that goes out of bounds will be spotted at the point where it crosses the sideline, not where it eventually strikes something that causes it to be out of bounds.

Say you have a punt that bounces and crosses the sideline at the B-3 and due to an unusual circumstance (wind, funny spin, etc), the ball comes back and strikes the pylon on the outward face of the pylon. You are going to have a touchback by rule, even though the ball crossed the sideline at the B-3."

IOW - 1) A loose ball that goes out of bounds will be spoted at the point where it crosses the sideline.
2) A punt that bounces and crosses the sideline at the B-3 and comes back and strikes the pylon... is a touchback by rule."
These statements are contradictory.

As an aside, how is an ungrounded punt any different from a grounded punt? They are both spotted where the ball crossed the sideline, not where they touched out of bounds.

Hmmm. Made me re-read. You are correct. The ball is out of bounds at the crossing point. Meaning that the play above the ball should be at the B-3 if the official has the perfect view AND the cohones to call it that way.

A question for you. Do you consider the pylon as a part of the goal line or the goal line extended?

No. (If you meant that as an either or, the answer is neither).

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

IOW - 1) A loose ball that goes out of bounds will be spoted at the point where it crosses the sideline.
2) A punt that bounces and crosses the sideline at the B-3 and comes back and strikes the pylon... is a touchback by rule."
These statements are contradictory.

Yes they are, but that's the rule book for you. I see a loose ball that touches the pylon as an exception to the general rule of a ball crossing the sideline plane.

I'll leave the rest alone for now until I can find that reference.

[MD Longhorn]

Fair enough. Here's Rule 4.2.3 B and C, which are the relevant rules, I believe.

B: A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line. (So at the moment this ball hits the pylon, it is out of bounds behind the goal line).
C: If a live ball not in player possession crosses a boundary line (like this one did, at the 3) and is THEN declared out of bounds (which happens when it hit the pylon behind the goal line), it is out of bounds at the crossing point.

[Welpe]

Continuing with the loose ball discussion:

AR 8-6-1-I

I. Team A’s fumble strikes the pylon at the intersection of Team B’s
goal line and sideline. RULING: Touchback. Team B’s ball at the
20-yard line (Rule 7-2-4-b).

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Continuing with the loose ball discussion:

AR 8-6-1-I

I. Team A’s fumble strikes the pylon at the intersection of Team B’s
goal line and sideline. RULING: Touchback. Team B’s ball at the
20-yard line (Rule 7-2-4-b).

Absolutely, but this ball didn't do anything we've been talking about. It doesn't say it went OOB before hitting the pylon.

[Welpe]

The simplicity of play leads me to believe it doesn't matter.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Welpe

The simplicity of play leads me to believe it doesn't matter.

Ask Tommy, or Pete.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Fair enough. Here's Rule 4.2.3 B and C, which are the relevant rules, I believe.

B: A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line. (So at the moment this ball hits the pylon, it is out of bounds behind the goal line).
C: If a live ball not in player possession crosses a boundary line (like this one did, at the 3) and is THEN declared out of bounds (which happens when it hit the pylon behind the goal line), it is out of bounds at the crossing point.

Sorry to butt in, but I have a question - in the "OOB behind the goal line" scenario, which happens first? Is the ball OOB and then behind the goal? or is it behind the goal and then OOB? IMO, even if those 2 occurred simultaneously, behind the goal is very important to the discussion. The ball became dead when it was declared OOB behind the goal line. Shouldn't this be a touchback?

[bearclause]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

This doesn't show us what we need to know... but it appears to me that the ball hit the pylon on the side, not the front. TD.

The Los Angeles Times had a better shot from about the same angle, but taken with a still camera. And he initially hit the inside corner of the pylon.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Ask Tommy, or Pete.

I'd rather ask Rom who states it's a TD.

Rom Gilbert Football Home Page

see #8

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Mike L

I'd rather ask Rom who states it's a TD.

Rom Gilbert Football Home Page

see #8

The play at #8 is not detailed enough to illustrate the difference.

Let me put it this way... if striking the pylon with the ball from ANY direction was enough to create a TD, we would see players trying to tap the ball into the outside edge of the pylon rather than what we actually DO see - which is players trying their best to reach the ball INSIDE the pylon, thus crossing the goalline before going out of bounds by striking the pylon.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

The play at #8 is not detailed enough to illustrate the difference.

Perhaps it is detailed enough in that Mr Gilbert chooses to not see any difference between inside, outside, in front, on top or any other possibility. I'll take his word for it that hitting the pylon means just that.

Let me put it this way... if striking the pylon with the ball from ANY direction was enough to create a TD, we would see players trying to tap the ball into the outside edge of the pylon rather than what we actually DO see - which is players trying their best to reach the ball INSIDE the pylon, thus crossing the goalline before going out of bounds by striking the pylon.

I try not to let the actions of players and their very limited knowledge of the rules influence my decisions regarding the rules.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Mike L

I try not to let the actions of players and their very limited knowledge of the rules influence my decisions regarding the rules.

Fair point, but surely somewhere a player would have been award a TD on a replay upon hitting the outside of the pylon, and word would have spread. Players don't know all the rules... surely! But the know the ones that matter, as do coaches - and I assure you TD vs no TD matters.

I've tried emailing the 2 I know that would KNOW this for sure, but have not gotten responses.

[Welpe]

Who wants to draft the e-mail to Rogers Redding? I don't have quite enough pull for that one.

Who is the official chapter rule interpreter or does this go higher to somebody like the district rep?