NCAA: out of bounds or TD when ball hits the pylon?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Welpe

That is what I will work on digging up.

Logically though it makes sense to me because the pylon is at the intersection of the sideline and the goaline. By rule, a loose ball that hits the pylon is considered out of bounds behind the goal line which tells me that if a ball hits a pylon, at least part of it crossed over the goal line.

Yes, but this is only true because the rule regarding a loose ball does not have the OOB rule that a ball carrier does. A loose ball is not OOB when it's airborne until it hits something (player (unairborne, of course), pylon, ground, non-player, chain, etc) and an airborne looseball can be "saved" for lack of a better word.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Yes, but this is only true because the rule regarding a loose ball does not have the OOB rule that a ball carrier does. A loose ball is not OOB when it's airborne until it hits something (player (unairborne, of course), pylon, ground, non-player, chain, etc) and an airborne looseball can be "saved" for lack of a better word.

I don't know that these situations are really all that different though. Consider this, a loose ball (other than a forward pass or forward fumble) that goes out of bounds will be spotted at the point where it crosses the sideline, not where it eventually strikes something that causes it to be out of bounds.

Say you have a punt that bounces and crosses the sideline at the B-3 and due to an unusual circumstance (wind, funny spin, etc), the ball comes back and strikes the pylon on the outward face of the pylon. You are going to have a touchback by rule, even though the ball crossed the sideline at the B-3.

Now we look at a situation where an airborne ball carrier extends the ball across the sideline and touches the same face on the pylon with the ball. Does it stand to reason that this situation is treated the same, that the ball crosses the goal line itself?

I think it does.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I don't know that these situations are really all that different though. Consider this, a loose ball (other than a forward pass or forward fumble) that goes out of bounds will be spotted at the point where it crosses the sideline, not where it eventually strikes something that causes it to be out of bounds.

Say you have a punt that bounces and crosses the sideline at the B-3 and due to an unusual circumstance (wind, funny spin, etc), the ball comes back and strikes the pylon on the outward face of the pylon. You are going to have a touchback by rule, even though the ball crossed the sideline at the B-3.

You just contradicted yourself. You say the loose ball is out of bounds at the spot where it went out of bounds and then illustrate with a case where it isn't. You're right, this is a touchback, by rule, even though it crossed the sideline at the B3. The rules for a grounded loose ball are not the same as for a ball in the arms of a ballcarrier. (Note that an UNgrounded punt also has a special rule to apply so that it does get marked where it went out of bounds).

Now we look at a situation where an airborne ball carrier extends the ball across the sideline and touches the same face on the pylon with the ball. Does it stand to reason that this situation is treated the same, that the ball crosses the goal line itself?

I think it does.

No. There is a SPECIFIC rule for a ball carried by a ball carrier (posted above). These 2 cases are by definition treated differently.

But if I were to try to convince you, I'd only repeat myself. I've posted the rule and the AR. If an official were to rule that a ball in possession of the ball carrier that struck the front of the pylon was a TD, in a game where review was possible, it would be overturned.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You just contradicted yourself.

No I didn't. I provided an example that is contrary to the normal convention. Exactly the same as a ball in possession touching a pylon.

(Note that an UNgrounded punt also has a special rule to apply so that it does get marked where it went out of bounds).

As an aside, how is an ungrounded punt any different from a grounded punt? They are both spotted where the ball crossed the sideline, not where they touched out of bounds.

You posted an AR that was similar to this situation but not the same.

A question for you. Do you consider the pylon as a part of the goal line or the goal line extended?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Welpe

No I didn't. I provided an example that is contrary to the normal convention. Exactly the same as a ball in possession touching a pylon.

Here's what you said: "Consider this, a loose ball (other than a forward pass or forward fumble) that goes out of bounds will be spotted at the point where it crosses the sideline, not where it eventually strikes something that causes it to be out of bounds.

Say you have a punt that bounces and crosses the sideline at the B-3 and due to an unusual circumstance (wind, funny spin, etc), the ball comes back and strikes the pylon on the outward face of the pylon. You are going to have a touchback by rule, even though the ball crossed the sideline at the B-3."

IOW - 1) A loose ball that goes out of bounds will be spoted at the point where it crosses the sideline.
2) A punt that bounces and crosses the sideline at the B-3 and comes back and strikes the pylon... is a touchback by rule."
These statements are contradictory.

As an aside, how is an ungrounded punt any different from a grounded punt? They are both spotted where the ball crossed the sideline, not where they touched out of bounds.

Hmmm. Made me re-read. You are correct. The ball is out of bounds at the crossing point. Meaning that the play above the ball should be at the B-3 if the official has the perfect view AND the cohones to call it that way.

A question for you. Do you consider the pylon as a part of the goal line or the goal line extended?

No. (If you meant that as an either or, the answer is neither).

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

IOW - 1) A loose ball that goes out of bounds will be spoted at the point where it crosses the sideline.
2) A punt that bounces and crosses the sideline at the B-3 and comes back and strikes the pylon... is a touchback by rule."
These statements are contradictory.

Yes they are, but that's the rule book for you. I see a loose ball that touches the pylon as an exception to the general rule of a ball crossing the sideline plane.

I'll leave the rest alone for now until I can find that reference.

[MD Longhorn]

Fair enough. Here's Rule 4.2.3 B and C, which are the relevant rules, I believe.

B: A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line. (So at the moment this ball hits the pylon, it is out of bounds behind the goal line).
C: If a live ball not in player possession crosses a boundary line (like this one did, at the 3) and is THEN declared out of bounds (which happens when it hit the pylon behind the goal line), it is out of bounds at the crossing point.