Roughing the QB or illegal helmet contact

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

One call or interpretation affects the entire game? Really????

Peace

You did notice, didn't you, that I used the word "potentially". Late in the game, time running out and your wrong call places A into field goal range to win the game when they otherwise wouldn't have the ability certainly affects the entire game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by kdf5

You did notice, didn't you, that I used the word "potentially". Late in the game, time running out and your wrong call places A into field goal range to win the game when they otherwise wouldn't have the ability certainly affects the entire game.

Maybe you are worried that you are going to get yelled at. But if a player spears a passer I am not concerned what is going to happen with the outcome of the game. And I will consider this RTP until we are told not to call it that way. That has been our interpretation for years.

Peace

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Maybe you are worried that you are going to get yelled at. But if a player spears a passer I am not concerned what is going to happen with the outcome of the game. And I will consider this RTP until we are told not to call it that way. That has been our interpretation for years.

Peace

If I'm gonna get yelled at I'd rather be right than wrong. Do what your interpretation says to do.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by kdf5

If I'm gonna get yelled at I'd rather be right than wrong. Do what your interpretation says to do.

Being right depends on who you work for.

We have been told that we can give a RTP for all kinds of illegal hits if that is the passer. I think just only worrying about a late hit is a thing of the past as players do things to punish or hurt the passer. So if that is the IHC is the kind of hit on the passer, I have been told it is OK to have a penalty for this. And that is what I and others have been doing for years.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

if a player spears a passer I am not concerned what is going to happen with the outcome of the game.

Despite the fact that there's actually a rule already telling us how to administer an illegal helmet contact penalty, and the actions don't fit the definition of RTP. Don't concern yourself that your ruling is wrong even if it affects the outcome of the game.

Seems you defer a lot of the strange un-rulebook-supported interpretations of yours on your local rules interpretor. I wonder if it's the messenger misunderstanding all of these rules, or if it's your interpretor. But SOMETHING is off there.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Despite the fact that there's actually a rule already telling us how to administer an illegal helmet contact penalty, and the actions don't fit the definition of RTP. Don't concern yourself that your ruling is wrong even if it affects the outcome of the game.

Seems you defer a lot of the strange un-rulebook-supported interpretations of yours on your local rules interpretor. I wonder if it's the messenger misunderstanding all of these rules, or if it's your interpretor. But SOMETHING is off there.

Mdcrowder,

For the record I am not just your average official. I am a state final official that happens to have 3 clinicians on our crew. That means that they not only interpret rules but have access to those that can decide what we do is official. My Referee has been a clinician in our state since the program started and happened to be the Official of the Year this past year in football. So if he asked our head guy what to do and he said that is what we do, I would rather do that than listen to some guy on this website on how to call something or not to call something.

I am also a three sport official. I happen to be a clinician in one of those sports. Worked a State Final in one of those other sports as well and one of the things is to be told how things are going to be handled while you are at the Finals. I have learned long time ago because of my association with the IHSA that if we want a ruling we go to our people. I had a friend that is a clinician in football just this year had an issue with a NF publication and asked for clarification. When he contacted the NF they told them to call your local interpreters and they would not give him an interpretation at all. Not the first time that has happen in either of my sports over the years as that is the common wisdom if you know people that have actually sat on the committee and what they tell us. And it is not unusual for my state or other states to take a stance on an issue even when the situation is in the Casebook or online with the NF. There is always a conflict with a rule and it needs clarification. Which is why my state took a stance on the horse-collar rule when the interpretations from the NF caused more confusion. Then the NF basically corrected the rule to what we were doing last year for this season, except for the specific foul language. We were still going to call a foul, just not a horse-collar if the runner did not have the ball anymore. And it came up several times over the years and everyone I know got the same interpretation.

And you live in Texas. Texas is not a NF state and does not have anyone that sits on the board or attends those meetings. So I guess maybe you would not know these things now would you? The rules are created by the NF but they will not give personal interpretations to anyone. This is why they ask you to contact your local people who have attended the NF meeting or decides this is how we will handle any number of situations. We do it often and as a clinician in my sport this is how we give out information. Again, do what works where you live, where we live this is RTP and we have asked for that clarification and were given such clarification. Maybe if you knew the right people you might figure out how the system actually works.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

For the record I am not just your average official. Peace

For the record, I know who you are. And for the record, I TOLD you I'd get resume whipped vs you actually answering the question. You did last longer than I expected though before pulling this out.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

For the record, I know who you are. And for the record, I TOLD you I'd get resume whipped vs you actually answering the question. You did last longer than I expected though before pulling this out.

You must not know who I am or who I work with. If you did then you would know it does not take us long to get an answer on a ruling and it did not take us long to get one on this play. Really do not care what you do, just told you what we do. Again, rulings come from your local people, not some guy on the board that has a fake name I will never meet in person.

Peace

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Seems you defer a lot of the strange un-rulebook-supported interpretations of yours on your local rules interpretor. I wonder if it's the messenger misunderstanding all of these rules, or if it's your interpretor. But SOMETHING is off there.

A fall guy is a must-have for people who are never wrong.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by kdf5

You did notice, didn't you, that I used the word "potentially". Late in the game, time running out and your wrong call places A into field goal range to win the game when they otherwise wouldn't have the ability certainly affects the entire game.

It's always been my understanding that the entire concept of "roughing the passer" is based on the fact that the passer is considered more vulnerable while in the passing mode, and to further discourage contact during this period of vulnerability a more serious penalty was associated with violations.

Contact with the passer during that protected period may, or may not, otherwise be contact deemed a foul underd different circumstances. Helmet to helmet contact against a runner is a personal foul, helmet to helmet contact against a passer is also a personal foul, but rises to the level of Roughing the Passer because of the increased vulnerability associated with passing.

If the contact occurs after the special protection intended for a passer expires, it would be a personal foul. If it occurs during that special protection status it's Roughing the Passer, which is a deliberate and intentional added level of penalty intended to disuade players from improperly contacting a passer while he is uniquely vulnerable.

It's really not our purpose to decide which penalty is more, or less, appropriate for a specific action, rather our role is to assess the appropriate penalty that fits the actual violation.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by ajmc

...rather our role is to assess the appropriate penalty that fits the actual violation.

How many times have you let a defender wrap up a passer and tackle him and not throw a flag or do you flag every hit on every passer regardless? If you don't have a flag on a hit on a passer then why not? What separates hits on passers that draw flags from hits that don't?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by ajmc

It's really not our purpose to decide which penalty is more, or less, appropriate for a specific action, rather our role is to assess the appropriate penalty that fits the actual violation.

You're right that it's not our purpose to decide which is more or less... it's our purpose to rule on what actually occurred and penalize as we're told. You're advocating the opposite.

The difference here is that the hit occurred at some moment where it was LEGAL to hit the passer. But since there was HTH contact, we must penalize the HTH. We should not penalize more than HTH by calling this RTP. The foul does not fit the description of RTP. The ONLY illegal act by the defender was the HTH - and his team should be penalized accordingly. Anything else is putting your personal feelings of fairness ahead of the rulebook. If the rulesmakers wanted this to be penalized as RTP, they would have put it there.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ajmc

It's always been my understanding that the entire concept of "roughing the passer" is based on the fact that the passer is considered more vulnerable while in the passing mode, and to further discourage contact during this period of vulnerability a more serious penalty was associated with violations.

Contact with the passer during that protected period may, or may not, otherwise be contact deemed a foul underd different circumstances. Helmet to helmet contact against a runner is a personal foul, helmet to helmet contact against a passer is also a personal foul, but rises to the level of Roughing the Passer because of the increased vulnerability associated with passing.

If the contact occurs after the special protection intended for a passer expires, it would be a personal foul. If it occurs during that special protection status it's Roughing the Passer, which is a deliberate and intentional added level of penalty intended to disuade players from improperly contacting a passer while he is uniquely vulnerable.

It's really not our purpose to decide which penalty is more, or less, appropriate for a specific action, rather our role is to assess the appropriate penalty that fits the actual violation.

I completely agree.

Peace

[john_faz]

First, I want to thank everyone for adding their helpful comments to this discussion thread. I have learned a lot about the rules and how local interpretations can vary.

I did some more research and thought I would share it with everyone. Earlier this year, I picked up a book titled "Football Rule Differences 2010" by Whiteside, Demetriou and Stern. I am sure most of you have seen some version of this guide.

The discussion of Rule 7, paragraph 22 (page 169) deals with this exact question and offers additional insight. In the section dealing with NFHS it says, "Personal fouls against a passer that occur before it was obvious the pass was thrown are penalized as personal fouls and not roughing (2003 interp, Sit 3).

The next section on NCAA rules goes on to say, "Personal fouls against a passer that occur before it was obvious the pass was thrown are penalized as roughing (9-1-21 Ex, interp).

So it is interesting that officials in TX that use NCAA rules (I believe) are declining to call the OP as RTP and officials in IL that use NFHS are calling the same play as RTP. It leads to the acknowledgement that this issue is anything but clear cut and that an official's best judgement should be used. In the end, I feel there was justification for my call as RTP and I'll move on to the next challenging play.

Thanks again.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by john_faz

The next section on NCAA rules goes on to say, "Personal fouls against a passer that occur before it was obvious the pass was thrown are penalized as roughing (9-1-21 Ex, interp).

I've not heard of this book, but wonder where they are getting this. 9-1-21 doesn't exist. 9-1-2-XXI has to do with a back blocking below the waist. Can't find any other 21 at all. 9-1-2-1 is also irrelevant. What rule or interp was this referring to. I've reread the section earlier in this thread, and re-read it again now to make sure I didn't miss anything. I see nothing similar to what is said above. Anyone?