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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 29, 2010, 02:15pm
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Another Momentum Rule questions

I have two questions that relate to the momentum rule (NFHS rules).


Situation 1: B1 intercepts a pass at B's 3-yard line, and his momentum carries him into B's end zone. While in the end zone, B1 fumbles the ball back out across the goal line and into the field of play where it is (a) recovered by A1 on B's 5-yard line; or (b) is muffed by A1 out of bounds at B's 5-yard line; or (c) is muffed by A1 back into the end zone where the ball subsequently goes out of bounds; or (d) goes out of bounds at B's 5-yard line untouched by any player.


My thoughts:
(a) A's ball, 1st and 10 at B's 5-yard line
(b) Not sure. A1 never gained possession. So would the momentum rule still apply, or would this work like any other forward fumble out of bounds by the team in possession?
(c) If the fumble never touched the ground and was muffed in-flight by A1, then the original force would still be B1's momentum. You can't add new force to a ball in flight.
But what if B1's fumble bounced on the ground before being muffed by A1? Would it matter where the fumbled ball hit the ground: behind the goal line vs. in the field of play?
(d) Similar to (b). Would the momentum rule still apply, or would this be treated like a forward fumble out of bounds by the team in possession?

-------------------------------


Situation 2: B1 intercepts a pass at B's 3-yard line, and his momentum carries him into B's end zone. While in the end zone, B1 circles around and attempts to run back out of the end zone and into the field of play. Just before reaching the goal line B1 trips and lands prone with the majority of his body still in the end zone, and the ball still held in his outstretched arms. The ball lands such that (a) the entire ball is beyond the goal line and in the field of play; or (b) the foremost point of the ball is in the field of play and the rearmost point of the ball is still in the end zone; or (c) the foremost point of the ball is touching the goal line but has not gone beyond the edge of the goal line closest to the field of play.

My thoughts:
  • (a) The ball has left the end zone. Momentum rule canceled. B's ball, 1st and 10 at the foremost point of the ball.
  • (b) I think if any part of the ball is over the goal line plane (i.e. the edge of the goal line closest to the field of play) then the ball is in the end zone. Since the ball never left the end zone, the momentum rule applies and it will be B's ball, 1st and 10 at B's 3-yard line (the spot of the interception).
  • (c) Same explanation as in (b).

My reason for bringing up Situation 2 is just to clarify that the goal line plane, for purposes of being in or out of the end zone, is the same regardless of which direction the ball is going.

---------------------------------

Thanks in advance for letting me pick your brains.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 29, 2010, 02:26pm
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Under the momentum exception, the ball is dead when it crosses the goal line.
B's ball at the spot of the interception- the 3 yard line- in all instances that you listed.
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Old Wed Sep 29, 2010, 02:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HLin NC View Post
Under the momentum exception, the ball is dead when it crosses the goal line.
B's ball at the spot of the interception- the 3 yard line- in all instances that you listed.
Umm. What?
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Old Wed Sep 29, 2010, 02:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HLin NC View Post
Under the momentum exception, the ball is dead when it crosses the goal line.
I don't think that's what you meant.
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Old Wed Sep 29, 2010, 02:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketSidewalk View Post
Situation 1: B1 intercepts a pass at B's 3-yard line, and his momentum carries him into B's end zone. While in the end zone, B1 fumbles the ball back out across the goal line and into the field of play where it is (a) recovered by A1 on B's 5-yard line; or (b) is muffed by A1 out of bounds at B's 5-yard line; or (c) is muffed by A1 back into the end zone where the ball subsequently goes out of bounds; or (d) goes out of bounds at B's 5-yard line untouched by any player.


My thoughts:
(a) A's ball, 1st and 10 at B's 5-yard line
(b) Not sure. A1 never gained possession. So would the momentum rule still apply, or would this work like any other forward fumble out of bounds by the team in possession?
(c) If the fumble never touched the ground and was muffed in-flight by A1, then the original force would still be B1's momentum. You can't add new force to a ball in flight.
But what if B1's fumble bounced on the ground before being muffed by A1? Would it matter where the fumbled ball hit the ground: behind the goal line vs. in the field of play?
(d) Similar to (b). Would the momentum rule still apply, or would this be treated like a forward fumble out of bounds by the team in possession?
.
My thoughts:

a) A's ball 1st and goal from the 5.
b) B ball 1st and 10 from the 5.
c) If grounded, A's force into B's endzone - touchback
d) same as (b)
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Old Wed Sep 29, 2010, 04:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HLin NC View Post
Under the momentum exception, the ball is dead when it crosses the goal line.
B's ball at the spot of the interception- the 3 yard line- in all instances that you listed.
Wanna get away?
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Old Thu Sep 30, 2010, 09:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenOfNC View Post
My thoughts:

a) A's ball 1st and goal from the 5.
b) B ball 1st and 10 from the 5.
c) If grounded, A's force into B's endzone - touchback
d) same as (b)
Thanks for your response. I've got a couple follow-ups

In (b) , would it change the outcome if the fumble was grounded before being muffed out of bounds by A1?


In (c), if the fumble became grounded by bouncing once prior to A1's muff, would it matter if the grounding occurred in the end zone versus occurring in the field of play? Or is where the ball touches the ground irrelevant with respect to grounding?
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Old Thu Sep 30, 2010, 09:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketSidewalk View Post
I have two questions that relate to the momentum rule (NFHS rules).


Situation 1: B1 intercepts a pass at B's 3-yard line, and his momentum carries him into B's end zone. While in the end zone, B1 fumbles the ball back out across the goal line and into the field of play where it is (a) recovered by A1 on B's 5-yard line; or (b) is muffed by A1 out of bounds at B's 5-yard line; or (c) is muffed by A1 back into the end zone where the ball subsequently goes out of bounds; or (d) goes out of bounds at B's 5-yard line untouched by any player.


My thoughts:
(a) A's ball, 1st and 10 at B's 5-yard line
(b) Not sure. A1 never gained possession. So would the momentum rule still apply, or would this work like any other forward fumble out of bounds by the team in possession?
(c) If the fumble never touched the ground and was muffed in-flight by A1, then the original force would still be B1's momentum. You can't add new force to a ball in flight.
But what if B1's fumble bounced on the ground before being muffed by A1? Would it matter where the fumbled ball hit the ground: behind the goal line vs. in the field of play?
(d) Similar to (b). Would the momentum rule still apply, or would this be treated like a forward fumble out of bounds by the team in possession?

-------------------------------


Situation 2: B1 intercepts a pass at B's 3-yard line, and his momentum carries him into B's end zone. While in the end zone, B1 circles around and attempts to run back out of the end zone and into the field of play. Just before reaching the goal line B1 trips and lands prone with the majority of his body still in the end zone, and the ball still held in his outstretched arms. The ball lands such that (a) the entire ball is beyond the goal line and in the field of play; or (b) the foremost point of the ball is in the field of play and the rearmost point of the ball is still in the end zone; or (c) the foremost point of the ball is touching the goal line but has not gone beyond the edge of the goal line closest to the field of play.

My thoughts:
  • (a) The ball has left the end zone. Momentum rule canceled. B's ball, 1st and 10 at the foremost point of the ball.
  • (b) I think if any part of the ball is over the goal line plane (i.e. the edge of the goal line closest to the field of play) then the ball is in the end zone. Since the ball never left the end zone, the momentum rule applies and it will be B's ball, 1st and 10 at B's 3-yard line (the spot of the interception).
  • (c) Same explanation as in (b).

My reason for bringing up Situation 2 is just to clarify that the goal line plane, for purposes of being in or out of the end zone, is the same regardless of which direction the ball is going.

---------------------------------

Thanks in advance for letting me pick your brains.
For momentum rule to apply, the ball has to become dead in the end zone in team possession of the player carrying across the goal line or go out of bounds in the end zone (8-5-2a EXCEPTION).

Situation 1.
a) A's ball, 1st and 10 at A's 5 yard line.
b) B's ball, 1st and 10 at A's 5 yard line (momentum no longer applies, but B is in team possession).
c) Momentum won't apply since the ball is out of the end zone. B is responsible for the loose ball. If you deem A applies a new force, touchback, otherwise it is a safety.
d) B's ball, 1st and 10 at the 5 yard line.

Situation 2.
The "goal line" is only the edge of the line closest to the field of play. It is 4 inches in width, but only the edge near the field of play matters. For the ball to be out of the end zone, the entire ball must be past this edge (not just part of it). Similar for a TD, only part of the ball needs to break this edge.
a) B's ball 1st and 10 at the 12 inch line (about).
b) B's ball 1st and 10 at the 3.
c) B's ball 1st and 10 at the 3.
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Old Thu Sep 30, 2010, 10:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketSidewalk View Post
Thanks for your response. I've got a couple follow-ups

In (b) , would it change the outcome if the fumble was grounded before being muffed out of bounds by A1?


In (c), if the fumble became grounded by bouncing once prior to A1's muff, would it matter if the grounding occurred in the end zone versus occurring in the field of play? Or is where the ball touches the ground irrelevant with respect to grounding?
Outcome wouldn't change in either.
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Old Thu Sep 30, 2010, 10:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ppaltice View Post
Situation 1.
a) A's ball, 1st and 10 at A's 5 yard line.
1st and goal.
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Old Thu Sep 30, 2010, 10:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenOfNC View Post
1st and goal.
I made the same mistake in my OP. Should be B's 5-yard line, with 1st and goal, not 1st and 10.

Good catch.
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Old Thu Sep 30, 2010, 02:31pm
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I extrapolated too much out of the Rule 10 case play. My bad.

After reviewing the case book plays regarding momentum, all the plays appear to deal with balls loose in the field of play, none I saw dealt with the ball becoming loose behind the goal line.
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