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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 17, 2010, 10:19pm
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untimed down?

coming off a timeout we had 23 seconds left in the 1st half, 4th down and long. team A punts the ball but we have a block below the waist behind the neutral zone(before ball was kicked) and team B accepts the penalty, we replay 4th down. at this point there is 13 seconds to go in the half. when would the clock start? if it starts on the ready for play we have an untimed down.
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Old Fri Sep 17, 2010, 10:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yankeesfan View Post
coming off a timeout we had 23 seconds left in the 1st half, 4th down and long. team A punts the ball but we have a block below the waist behind the neutral zone(before ball was kicked) and team B accepts the penalty, we replay 4th down. at this point there is 13 seconds to go in the half. when would the clock start? if it starts on the ready for play we have an untimed down.
CANADIAN RULING:

We'd be under the 3-minute warning. Because there is a penalty application, we'd start the game clock on the snap.

A penalty app is one of 7 elements that cause the game clock to start on the snap on the subsequent play.
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Old Sat Sep 18, 2010, 01:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yankeesfan View Post
coming off a timeout we had 23 seconds left in the 1st half, 4th down and long. team A punts the ball but we have a block below the waist behind the neutral zone(before ball was kicked) and team B accepts the penalty, we replay 4th down. at this point there is 13 seconds to go in the half. when would the clock start? if it starts on the ready for play we have an untimed down.
How the previous play ended determines when the clock starts, not whether there was a penalty or not. The penalty has nothing to do with it. How did the play end?
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Old Sat Sep 18, 2010, 08:16am
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the ball ended up being downed by k.
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Old Sat Sep 18, 2010, 08:21am
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Quick thinking tells me you had a legal scrimmage kick and after a legal scrimmage kick the clock starts with the snap
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Old Sat Sep 18, 2010, 09:47am
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Originally Posted by BoBo View Post
Quick thinking tells me you had a legal scrimmage kick and after a legal scrimmage kick the clock starts with the snap
I agree with your assessment, the clock would start on the snap. If this were a situation where the clock would start on the ready, I would suggest that how the clock would be handled should be part of the penalty explanation to the captain.

In the clock starting on the ready situation, time would likely expire before the next play would start and because the previous down included an accepted penalty, there would be an untimed down should the clock expire. Explaining this to the offended captain should eliminate his trying to rush through getting a play off, fearing the clock would expire and end the game.

It's reasonable to presume most HS captains may not be aware of the timing protocol and unnecessarily jeopardize their team fearing they would not get an opportunity to get a play off before the game ended.
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Old Sat Sep 18, 2010, 03:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoBo View Post
Quick thinking tells me you had a legal scrimmage kick and after a legal scrimmage kick the clock starts with the snap
Not exactly correct ... The OP stated 4th down was replayed, since neither team was awarded a new series following a legal kick the clock would start on the ready (3-4-3b&c). If time expires before the snap, A/K is given an untimed down because a foul was accepted during the last timed down. Casebook 3.4.2D is a similar play to the OP in that the accepted foul causes the down to be replayed.

3-4-3 . . . The clock shall start with the snap or when any free kick is touched, other than first touching by K, if the clock was stopped because:
a. The ball goes out of bounds.
b. B is awarded a new series.
c. Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick.
d. The ball becomes dead behind the goal line.
e. A legal or illegal forward pass is incomplete.
f. A request for a charged or TV/radio time-out is granted.
g. A period ends.

3.4.2 SITUATION D: K11 punts the ball from a fourth and 10 situation. R1 catches the kick and returns 10 yards. During the down, but prior to the catch, K3 holds R2. R accepts the penalty. RULING: After enforcement, the clock starts on the ready-for-play signal. (3-4-2b3)
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Old Sat Sep 18, 2010, 04:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yankeesfan View Post
coming off a timeout we had 23 seconds left in the 1st half, 4th down and long. team A punts the ball but we have a block below the waist behind the neutral zone(before ball was kicked) and team B accepts the penalty, we replay 4th down. at this point there is 13 seconds to go in the half. when would the clock start? if it starts on the ready for play we have an untimed down.
Under Fed rules, start the clock on the ready. We have not awarded a new series after a legal kick, and there was no fair catch made. See casebook 3.4.2, especially situation D.
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Old Sat Sep 18, 2010, 07:58pm
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Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire View Post
Under Fed rules, start the clock on the ready. We have not awarded a new series after a legal kick, and there was no fair catch made. See casebook 3.4.2, especially situation D.
Thank you for a great reference. Any day you learn something, you thought you already knew, is a good day.
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Old Sun Sep 19, 2010, 10:52am
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Anyway, futile for team B to enforce the penalty, when A is just going to take a knee.
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Old Sun Sep 19, 2010, 11:54pm
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Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
Anyway, futile for team B to enforce the penalty, when A is just going to take a knee.
how do you know that? Maybe now they could decide to throw a hail mary, I would think that R would/should decline the foul & they would choose to run a play or down it, I don't see many situations where R would want K to keep the ball
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Old Mon Sep 20, 2010, 09:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
Anyway, futile for team B to enforce the penalty, when A is just going to take a knee.
Not if B has a time out left...
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Old Mon Sep 20, 2010, 10:57am
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
Not if B has a time out left...
Yes, I hadn't thought about that one. It might not have paid for them to take time out with the previous field position, but the penalty could change their mind. Good catch.
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