Untimed down or not?

[9redskin4]

I have two instances that happened in the same game.

Situation 1. A11 is running down the sideline as time expires in the second quarter. As A11 is tackled, B2 commits a facemask penalty. The clock had expired before the penalty occured. A accepts the five yard penalty. Does A get one untimed down before the half ends?

Situation 2. With time running down to end the game A is trying to get to the line a scrimmage and get a play off. With four seconds left on the clock, A commits a false start and the penalty causes the clock to stop with four seconds left. B accepts the penalty. Two questions here... does the clock start on the snap or on the ready for play? If the clock starts on the ready for play and A does not get a snap off before the clock expires, are they given an opportunity to run an untimed down?

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by 9redskin4

I have two instances that happened in the same game.

Situation 1. A11 is running down the sideline as time expires in the second quarter. As A11 is tackled, B2 commits a facemask penalty. The clock had expired before the penalty occured. A accepts the five yard penalty. Does A get one untimed down before the half ends?

NCAA: Although there is no longer a 5 yard incidental facemask foul anymore, if this would have been a 15 yard variety, then team A will get an untimed down.

Situation 2. With time running down to end the game A is trying to get to the line a scrimmage and get a play off. With four seconds left on the clock, A commits a false start and the penalty causes the clock to stop with four seconds left. B accepts the penalty. Two questions here... does the clock start on the snap or on the ready for play? If the clock starts on the ready for play and A does not get a snap off before the clock expires, are they given an opportunity to run an untimed down?

NCAA: The clock will start on the ready. If time expires then the game is over.

[svm1010]

Sit 1: Yes, any time you have a penalty by either team during the last timed down and the penalty is accepted you extend by one Untimed down.
Sit 2: What I was taught when trying to determine clock status after a foul was to remove the foul from the situation and use the resulting clock status

for example;
Clock is running, Previous Down ends, Ready for play, False Start, Ready for play, Snap
Becomes... Previous Down ends, Ready for play, Snap.....Clock would have never stopped therefore after the penalty enforcement you wind the clock on the RFP

another example
Clock is running, Previous Down ends with ball out of bounds (clock stops), Ready for play, False Start, Ready for play, Snap
Becomes... Previous Down ends (clock stops), Ready for play, Snap..... after enforcement you have the clock starting on the Snap

The only exception to that rule is if you have a Delay of Game Penalty which will start the clock on the snap regardless of the previous status.

So to answer Sit 2
The clock will start on the RFP and no, I will not give them an untimed down because the False start is a Dead ball foul and (I'm assuming) the last timed down did not have a foul.

[FTVMartin]

Simple answer is this:
#1 yes
#2 start it on the RFP

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by 9redskin4

Situation 1. A11 is running down the sideline as time expires in the second quarter. As A11 is tackled, B2 commits a facemask penalty. The clock had expired before the penalty occured. A accepts the five yard penalty. Does A get one untimed down before the half ends?

CANADIAN RULING:

This is a 15-yard + AFD Unnecessary Roughness Penalty. Points of Application are among Point of Last Scrimmage (PLS), Point Ball Held (PBH), or Point Ball Dead (PBD), at A's option. Basically, A chooses what point is best for them. Since this was the last play of the quarter, A can choose to apply the foul at the beginning of the next quarter. If the foul is applied in the same quarter, yes, there is one more play.

Originally Posted by 9redskin4

Situation 2. With time running down to end the game A is trying to get to the line a scrimmage and get a play off. With four seconds left on the clock, A commits a false start and the penalty causes the clock to stop with four seconds left. B accepts the penalty. Two questions here... does the clock start on the snap or on the ready for play? If the clock starts on the ready for play and A does not get a snap off before the clock expires, are they given an opportunity to run an untimed down?

CANADIAN RULING:

We're obviously under the 3-minute warning, so any penalty application causes the clock to start on the snap. B can decline the penalty to force the clock to start on the RFP, essentially assuring that this will be the last play. However, since 4 seconds would likely come off the clock no matter what type of play is run, A wil not have the opportunity to sneak in two plays, therefore, B's best option is to accept the penalty, thereby forcing A to navigate those 5 extra yards to be successful.

[Theisey]

In situation #2, assuming the poster is asking about, becasue there was an accepted penalty, team-A would get an untimed down if the clock happened to expire before they could snap it.
Case book 3.3.3 SITUATION B.

Many of use that work both rule codes feel this is a bad NFHS rule, but never the less, one to understand because you know you're going to get an argument on it from team-B coach.


>>> Actually, I may be wrong on this.. Anyone else care to take a shot. The FS foul did not occur during the last timed down. It's bascially a dead ball foul, so now I'm waffling on whether this quailfies for an extenstion for team-A.

[cdoug]

Originally Posted by Theisey

In situation #2, assuming the poster is asking about, becasue there was an accepted penalty, team-A would get an untimed down if the clock happened to expire before they could snap it.
Case book 3.3.3 SITUATION B.

The case 3.3.3 talks about a defensive penalty that causes the clock to stop and then restart on the RFP. This foul was during a live ball, not a dead ball like was described in the OP.

I would tend to think that because of the FS being a DB foul that the clock would start on the RFP and no untimed down since the foul wasn't during the last live ball of the period.

[parepat]

Right or wrong, in this case I tell the coach that the clock will start when I mark the ball ready for play and take my time marking the penalty and the RFP.

[SouthGARef]

No untimed down in B. The false start is a dead ball foul.

[Warrenkicker]

There is no basis for an untimed down for A in Situation 2. The ball was not live when the false start occurred thus it was not a live-ball foul. We can only extend for accepted live-ball penalties. Even more it is allowable for us to start this clock without allowing A the chance to snap the ball if it is determined that the foul happened only so that the clock could be stopped. If we are clear that the ball would not have been snapped legally prior to the clock running out then we can not allow A another snap after giving up 5 yards.

[wisref2]

To expand in Warrenkicker - if the false start was done to stop the clock, it is an abuse of the timing rule. As he said, if it was obvious that A could not have snapped the ball before time ran out, it is within the official's power to let time run out and not allow A to snap the ball.

No matter your call, you're gonna get screamed at - so get screamed at for doing the right thing.

[GBFBUmp]

What about this scenario... 2nd and 8, snap is at 20 seconds left in 1st qtr. Line to gain reached, but Holding on A. B accepts penalty, Clock was stopped for the holding penalty at 10 seconds. Live Clock. Penalty is enforced and clock is wound at RFP. A is leading, and has no desire to run another play. Lets Clock run out. B Coach wants 3.3.3 invoked to force A to run another play in Q1 (Apparently B wanted the wind at his back for one more play).

Does this require one untimed down?

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by GBFBUmp

What about this scenario... 2nd and 8, snap is at 20 seconds left in 1st qtr. Line to gain reached, but Holding on A. B accepts penalty, Clock was stopped for the holding penalty at 10 seconds. Live Clock. Penalty is enforced and clock is wound at RFP. A is leading, and has no desire to run another play. Lets Clock run out. B Coach wants 3.3.3 invoked to force A to run another play in Q1 (Apparently B wanted the wind at his back for one more play).

Does this require one untimed down?

Yes, you have to run another play. See 3.3.3 Sit. B.

[ajmc]

No matter how you twist it, slice it, turn it, bend it it seems a (NFHS) period doesn't end until there is a play that satisfies NF: 3.3.3. What part of, "a play must be extended....... is causing the confusion?

If you listed the 100 most confusing rules in the NFHS book, would this rule make the list?