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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 02:15pm
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Passing TD's

We have all seen the Bears - Lions game from 9/12. What does the official NFL rule book state as to what is a possecsion and what isn't? to many different variations flying around!
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 02:28pm
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Originally Posted by cbears40 View Post
We have all seen the Bears - Lions game from 9/12. What does the official NFL rule book state as to what is a possecsion and what isn't? to many different variations flying around!
I will bite I guess.

The ruling on the field was correct. The player must survive the ground to complete a catch. This means that it does not matter how many feet, arm or leg is down on the ground, if they cannot demonstrate they made the catch after hitting the ground it is not a catch anywhere on the field. This rule has been the case for several years now and was consistently applied here.

Great call, but most fans want exceptions applied to hard, fast rules that are applied in every game to soot a situation they do not like.

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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 03:35pm
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Do you really think he did not survive the catch? Clearly they said that the official did not err. My question is whether they would have overturned it if they gave him the TD. That action when he dropped the ball was not part of the football play in my opinion.

How about this one.

Receiver lands with the ball and lays on his back dong a snow angel. WHile doing the andgel the ball pops out. TD?

This action should be a TD and if it isn't under the current rules, they need to be changed.
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 03:49pm
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 04:20pm
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I think they are truly skating the edge when they say this was properly ruled upon. Had R ruled this a TD, they would also say it was properly ruled upon. The pass was caught already BEFORE CJ started falling.
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 06:23pm
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The ball popped out the second he brought the actual ball tot he ground. It is not a catch until that happens. If he would have come up with the ball after the ball hit the ground, then yes. He also would have been better served to use his other hand to cover the ball. And this rule also is designed to give the player credit if the ball hits the ground and still maintain control. He did not do that which is why this was waved off as it should be. That is the rule and all I hear is what is "should be." Well it is not the rule to decide when it is convenient.

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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 10:08pm
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The rule book states in Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3:

Item 1: Player Going To The Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball after he touches the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

The play was consistent with how the NFL rules catches.
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 11:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parepat View Post
Do you really think he did not survive the catch? Clearly they said that the official did not err. My question is whether they would have overturned it if they gave him the TD. That action when he dropped the ball was not part of the football play in my opinion.

How about this one.

Receiver lands with the ball and lays on his back dong a snow angel. WHile doing the andgel the ball pops out. TD?

This action should be a TD and if it isn't under the current rules, they need to be changed.
In my opinion, it would have been ruled incomplete no matter how it was ruled on the field.

It is also my understanding that this issue is a POE this year for NFL officials.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 12:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbears40 View Post
We have all seen the Bears - Lions game from 9/12. What does the official NFL rule book state as to what is a possecsion and what isn't? to many different variations flying around!
See Mike Pereira explains big call in Detroit Lions-Chicago Bears game - NFL News - FOX Sports on MSN

Apparently, the NFL rulebook reference is Rule 8, Section 1, Article 4, Item 1. The play was correctly ruled incomplete.
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Old Wed Sep 15, 2010, 12:53am
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This could be interesting in its interaction with runner's progress in some cases, runner's being down in others. Does the pass not end until the player shows control of the ball after it touches the ground? Or is it one of these retroactive/in-abeyance rulings where if he does maintain control, the pass is ruled to have ended some time beforehand? Knowing the NFL, I bet they're not clear about that distinction.
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Old Wed Sep 15, 2010, 12:25pm
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Hot Dog!

His unnecessary hotdogging after a great catch is what cost us the game. Catch the ball - cover it with both hands - hand it to the official - game over!

There was no need for the ball to ever touch the ground IMHO
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Old Wed Sep 15, 2010, 12:50pm
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Originally Posted by Refsmitty View Post
His unnecessary hotdogging after a great catch is what cost us the game. Catch the ball - cover it with both hands - hand it to the official - game over!

There was no need for the ball to ever touch the ground IMHO
Yep.

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Old Wed Sep 15, 2010, 11:26pm
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Here are a couple of cases regarding what I meant above:

(1) X1, eligible, gets his hands on the forward pass while in contact with opponent Y1 and keeps his hands on the ball while moving toward X1's end line, falling, and maintaining contact with Y1. X1 touches ground with both feet in bounds but continues to fall toward his own end line, the ball moving backward and downward, ending with X1 sliding on the ground with X1 maintaining control of the ball moving toward his own end line until finally stopping. Where's the dead ball spot?

(2) Same play, but X1 and the caught ball are moving toward Y's end line. With Y1 in contact with X1, X1's knee hits the ground in bounds, and continues moving the ball forward, ending sprawling on the ground with arms with the ball stretched out in front of him, sliding with the ball toward Y's end line until finally stopping, still in control of the ball. Dead ball spot?

Is player possession, and hence the end of the pass, ruled retroactively once the completion is established, or is the ball considered loose until the pass can be ruled complete? And then consider the interaction with other criteria of dead ball or completed pass:

(3) X1 comes down with the ball having jumped for it, touches both feet to the ground in bounds, but then continues to fall, finally coming to rest with the ball on the ground out of bounds and out of his grasp. Incomplete pass, or does going out of bounds preclude the "control to the ground" criterion?

(4) After touching both feet in bounds, X1 while continuing to fall hops out of bounds, ending in control of the ball on the ground. Incomplete pass, or can he satisfy the feet on the ground and control of the ball criteria separately instead of simultaneously?
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Old Wed Sep 15, 2010, 11:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
(1) X1, eligible, gets his hands on the forward pass while in contact with opponent Y1 and keeps his hands on the ball while moving toward X1's end line, falling, and maintaining contact with Y1. X1 touches ground with both feet in bounds but continues to fall toward his own end line, the ball moving backward and downward, ending with X1 sliding on the ground with X1 maintaining control of the ball moving toward his own end line until finally stopping. Where's the dead ball spot?
I am trying to imagine the description, but it sounds like you might have joint possession which means the play is dead before they go to the ground. But if you rule that they do not have joint possession, the minute X1 has the ball on the ground and in control, then the spot would be where he landed and give the forward progress where the ball was when he landed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
(2) Same play, but X1 and the caught ball are moving toward Y's end line. With Y1 in contact with X1, X1's knee hits the ground in bounds, and continues moving the ball forward, ending sprawling on the ground with arms with the ball stretched out in front of him, sliding with the ball toward Y's end line until finally stopping, still in control of the ball. Dead ball spot?

Is player possession, and hence the end of the pass, ruled retroactively once the completion is established, or is the ball considered loose until the pass can be ruled complete? And then consider the interaction with other criteria of dead ball or completed pass:
Where the knee hit and the ball is extended at the time he hit the ground. You do not give him credit for sliding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
(3) X1 comes down with the ball having jumped for it, touches both feet to the ground in bounds, but then continues to fall, finally coming to rest with the ball on the ground out of bounds and out of his grasp. Incomplete pass, or does going out of bounds preclude the "control to the ground" criterion?
Incomplete pass as I think you are describing it. This is of course the minute he hit the ground and the ball came out. At least that is what it sounds like you are saying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
(4) After touching both feet in bounds, X1 while continuing to fall hops out of bounds, ending in control of the ball on the ground. Incomplete pass, or can he satisfy the feet on the ground and control of the ball criteria separately instead of simultaneously?
Complete pass as it appears he had the ball the entire time going to the ground and after hitting the ground.

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Old Wed Sep 15, 2010, 11:57pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I am trying to imagine the description, but it sounds like you might have joint possession which means the play is dead before they go to the ground.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to set up a joint possession description, but just to establish contact between opponents as necessary to down the runner in NFL ball. But you seem to have answered the important points anyway.
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