Passing TD's

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Refsmitty

His unnecessary hotdogging after a great catch is what cost us the game. Catch the ball - cover it with both hands - hand it to the official - game over!

There was no need for the ball to ever touch the ground IMHO

Yep.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Here are a couple of cases regarding what I meant above:

(1) X1, eligible, gets his hands on the forward pass while in contact with opponent Y1 and keeps his hands on the ball while moving toward X1's end line, falling, and maintaining contact with Y1. X1 touches ground with both feet in bounds but continues to fall toward his own end line, the ball moving backward and downward, ending with X1 sliding on the ground with X1 maintaining control of the ball moving toward his own end line until finally stopping. Where's the dead ball spot?

(2) Same play, but X1 and the caught ball are moving toward Y's end line. With Y1 in contact with X1, X1's knee hits the ground in bounds, and continues moving the ball forward, ending sprawling on the ground with arms with the ball stretched out in front of him, sliding with the ball toward Y's end line until finally stopping, still in control of the ball. Dead ball spot?

Is player possession, and hence the end of the pass, ruled retroactively once the completion is established, or is the ball considered loose until the pass can be ruled complete? And then consider the interaction with other criteria of dead ball or completed pass:

(3) X1 comes down with the ball having jumped for it, touches both feet to the ground in bounds, but then continues to fall, finally coming to rest with the ball on the ground out of bounds and out of his grasp. Incomplete pass, or does going out of bounds preclude the "control to the ground" criterion?

(4) After touching both feet in bounds, X1 while continuing to fall hops out of bounds, ending in control of the ball on the ground. Incomplete pass, or can he satisfy the feet on the ground and control of the ball criteria separately instead of simultaneously?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

(1) X1, eligible, gets his hands on the forward pass while in contact with opponent Y1 and keeps his hands on the ball while moving toward X1's end line, falling, and maintaining contact with Y1. X1 touches ground with both feet in bounds but continues to fall toward his own end line, the ball moving backward and downward, ending with X1 sliding on the ground with X1 maintaining control of the ball moving toward his own end line until finally stopping. Where's the dead ball spot?

I am trying to imagine the description, but it sounds like you might have joint possession which means the play is dead before they go to the ground. But if you rule that they do not have joint possession, the minute X1 has the ball on the ground and in control, then the spot would be where he landed and give the forward progress where the ball was when he landed.

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

(2) Same play, but X1 and the caught ball are moving toward Y's end line. With Y1 in contact with X1, X1's knee hits the ground in bounds, and continues moving the ball forward, ending sprawling on the ground with arms with the ball stretched out in front of him, sliding with the ball toward Y's end line until finally stopping, still in control of the ball. Dead ball spot?

Is player possession, and hence the end of the pass, ruled retroactively once the completion is established, or is the ball considered loose until the pass can be ruled complete? And then consider the interaction with other criteria of dead ball or completed pass:

Where the knee hit and the ball is extended at the time he hit the ground. You do not give him credit for sliding.

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

(3) X1 comes down with the ball having jumped for it, touches both feet to the ground in bounds, but then continues to fall, finally coming to rest with the ball on the ground out of bounds and out of his grasp. Incomplete pass, or does going out of bounds preclude the "control to the ground" criterion?

Incomplete pass as I think you are describing it. This is of course the minute he hit the ground and the ball came out. At least that is what it sounds like you are saying?

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

(4) After touching both feet in bounds, X1 while continuing to fall hops out of bounds, ending in control of the ball on the ground. Incomplete pass, or can he satisfy the feet on the ground and control of the ball criteria separately instead of simultaneously?

Complete pass as it appears he had the ball the entire time going to the ground and after hitting the ground.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am trying to imagine the description, but it sounds like you might have joint possession which means the play is dead before they go to the ground.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to set up a joint possession description, but just to establish contact between opponents as necessary to down the runner in NFL ball. But you seem to have answered the important points anyway.

[football-1]

Before 1999 there was a different rule in the NFL, forward pass, ball touches ground.

Does somebody know the exact wording of the rule back then ?


Or straight before 1999 the exact wording for incomplete pass ?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by football-1

Before 1999 there was a different rule in the NFL, forward pass, ball touches ground.

Does somebody know the exact wording of the rule back then ?


Or straight before 1999 the exact wording for incomplete pass ?

For a long time the NFL (holding over an old NCAA rule IIRC) rule on player possession included the criterion "able to perform any act common to the game", which of course cleared up nothing.

Everyone's code on forward passes (except, maybe, now NFL's) has the ball becoming dead, and therefore the pass ending, on touching the ground, meaning that the pass had to be completed before the ball touched the ground. It was also widely understood that trapping a loose ball against the ground was one way to gain possession of it, but the trapping was understood to require a finite amount of time with the ball in contact with the ground, while touching was instantaneous, so that the apparent tie between the ball's touching the ground and coming into possession was resolved in favor of touching the ground coming first.

[Canned Heat]

If you've seen anything further on this, it was basically stated by the league that had CJ instantly raised his arm and spiked the ball while on his butt for that split second, it would've been called a TD...another gray area part of the "second act" part of things.

The NFL would've ruled favorably at either outcome, and now they hush it down for damage control. It was obviously quite clear that CJ never had an issue with controlling the ball...until he went to get up off the ground and used the ball to push off. Where that didn't fall in as "second act" material...I don't know. I'm sure the 2 officials on either side of CJ that signaled TD have had some phone discussions with each other since last weekend.

The only thing I like about the overall outcome is that maybe these
high-priced characters will think more about the game and less about the celebratory crap afterwards.

[football-1]

The ruling on the Lions Johnson play was correct and a play like that should never be valid.

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Everyone's code on forward passes (except, maybe, now NFL's) has the ball becoming dead, and therefore the pass ending, on touching the ground, meaning that the pass had to be completed before the ball touched the ground.

What is the exact meaning of "completed" ?