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Old Sun Sep 05, 2010, 12:14am
U52 U52 is offline
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MHSAA Trick Question ?

K is attempting a field goal. Holder muffs the snap and the kicker kicks the ball off the ground through the uprights. Choices
A.Successful Field Goal
B. Foul for an Illegal kick; if the penalty is accepted, penalize 15 yards from the spot of the foul and replay the down. If the penalty is declined the field goal is good.
C. Foul for an illegal kick; if the penalty is accepted, penalize 15 yards from the spot of the foul and replay the down. If the penalty is declined, the result of the play is a touchback by virtue of the illegal kick.
D. None of the above.

I feel the right answer is C, but thinking D because of the fact it is a touchback because of the illegal kick going into the end zone not the kick itself.

Any help would be appreciated.
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Old Sun Sep 05, 2010, 08:11am
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In C, I'm sure they mean "the result of the play is a touchback instead of a successful field goal by virtue of the illegal kick." This is not a trick question - C is the answer you want.
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Old Sun Sep 05, 2010, 08:52am
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Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire View Post
In C, I'm sure they mean "the result of the play is a touchback instead of a successful field goal by virtue of the illegal kick." This is not a trick question - C is the answer you want.
+1

An illegal kick cannot score, but it is still a kick. Hence the touchback. Odd usage of the expression 'by virtue of' in the context of a foul.
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Old Sun Sep 05, 2010, 10:57am
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The status of the illegal kick in this situation is not a kick. It retains its previous status. In this case, it is simply treated as a fumble. It is a touchback because Team A forced the ball across Team B's goalline.
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Old Sun Sep 05, 2010, 11:58am
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Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
The status of the illegal kick in this situation is not a kick. It retains its previous status. In this case, it is simply treated as a fumble.
Except for the (strong) chance of my being out of date on this, it's not even called "a kick" in Fed rules, and the action is of illegally kicking the ball rather than an illegal kick. AFAICT, the status of the loose ball is still that of "backward pass". The snap was completed when the ball was muffed.
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Old Sun Sep 05, 2010, 02:00pm
MRH MRH is offline
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The answer is C.

An illegal kick CANNOT score so the result of the play is a touchback.
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Old Sun Sep 05, 2010, 03:45pm
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Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
Except for the (strong) chance of my being out of date on this, it's not even called "a kick" in Fed rules
Techinically, it is still a kick because a kick is defined (2-24-1) as "the intentional striking of the ball with the knee, lower leg, or foot." However, the rules pertaining to kicks and the action/status of the ball during kicks pertain specifically to free kicks or scrimmage kicks. By rule, a free kick (2-24-3) and a scrimmage kick (2-24-4) are both legal kicks.

And per 2-24-9, "When the ball is loose following an illegal kick, it is treated as a fumble." The biggest difference this makes is that the ball is still live when it enters the end zone, as B can recover and run it out and A can score a TD (which would be nullified by the penalty). And obviously in the OP, it is a touchback because the ball went out of the back of the end zone.
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Old Sun Sep 05, 2010, 04:18pm
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Originally Posted by AUgrad2006 View Post
Techinically, it is still a kick because a kick is defined (2-24-1) as "the intentional striking of the ball with the knee, lower leg, or foot." However, the rules pertaining to kicks and the action/status of the ball during kicks pertain specifically to free kicks or scrimmage kicks. By rule, a free kick (2-24-3) and a scrimmage kick (2-24-4) are both legal kicks.

And per 2-24-9, "When the ball is loose following an illegal kick, it is treated as a fumble." The biggest difference this makes is that the ball is still live when it enters the end zone, as B can recover and run it out and A can score a TD (which would be nullified by the penalty). And obviously in the OP, it is a touchback because the ball went out of the back of the end zone.
So then, it's not a kick in the sense that it's not one of the 2 legal kicks - free or scrimmage, the player has simply "kicked" the ball? That seems to make the most sense according to the way it's treated. If it were a "kick" then we would have to apply the appropriate kicking rules, such as "being dead when it crossed the goal line. But b/c it wasn't a "kick," it is still a loose ball, treated like any other loose ball that is not a kick.
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Old Sun Sep 05, 2010, 08:37pm
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Originally Posted by BroKen62 View Post
So then, it's not a kick in the sense that it's not one of the 2 legal kicks - free or scrimmage, the player has simply "kicked" the ball? That seems to make the most sense according to the way it's treated. If it were a "kick" then we would have to apply the appropriate kicking rules, such as "being dead when it crossed the goal line. But b/c it wasn't a "kick," it is still a loose ball, treated like any other loose ball that is not a kick.
So then I am out of date in that Fed has a new (to me) definition of "kick" as a noun. I was going back to the time when all the USAn codes distinguished merely kicking the ball from a kick; the latter was defined as a punt, drop, or place kick. But it looks like the effect of the new language is the same as it would've been, so I don't know what they gained by making "kicking the ball" synonymous with making a kick, when they had to then add language as to how a kick other than those kicks be treated. Presumably this allowed them to condense some provisions regarding illegally kicking the ball with the rules on illegal kicks.

Do NCAA & NFL still distinguish illegally kicking the ball from making an illegal kick?
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Old Mon Sep 06, 2010, 10:57am
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Robert, I'm not sure about the NFL but the NCAA still does distinguish between the two. An illegal scrimmage kick will cause the ball to become dead and is a 5 yard penalty from the previous spot. Illegally kicking the ball does not cause the ball to become dead and is a 15 yard penalty enforced under 3 and 1.
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