Trick play question

tchaap · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 26, 2003, 02:30pm

New to this forum; however, I have been reading for a few weeks and I am impressed with the great answers.

Trick play question?

In meeting with one of the coaches last Sat. before a youth game(North Georgia - NFHS)we asked the coach about any special plays. Coach says yes, we have the "wrong ball"
play.

Coach says that at some point in the game he may yell to QB-"hey QB, you have the wrong ball" just after the line gets set. QB says "hey center wrong ball". Center hands the ball over his shoulder and the QB starts to walk over to the sideline. When he gets in the flat he burns upfield.

Our white hat said "can't do that, sounds like you are trying to deceive the d'fense". The coach said "exactly, the line is set, the snap over the shoulder is legal"

White Hat said he thougt it was illegal?

What are your thoughts?

Thanks for a great forum, Tchaap

KEFerrell · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 26, 2003, 02:43pm

This is basically the same as the "where is the tee" play reffered to in 9.9.3 Situation B in the casebook.

USC Prior to snap when attempted.

PSU213 · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 26, 2003, 02:56pm

Casebook play 9.9.3B deals with the "where's the tee" play. In the comments it states "actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem [sic] and a snap isn't imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal." The play you describe falls into this category. This is a USC foul before the snap.

BktBallRef · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 26, 2003, 02:57pm

When I got the the term "wrong ball" I didn't even have to read the rest of your post.

Any actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn't imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

cmathews · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 26, 2003, 03:45pm

I agree with all above but I do have a snap question....why they would do it other than to decieve is beyond me...but assuming the verbiage isn't there, would that be a legal snap in other circumstances??? Similar to the swinging gate snap where the ball is "tossed" kind of at a 45 degree angle to the LOS as opposed to directly between the snappers legs????

KEFerrell · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 26, 2003, 03:55pm

Yes, "sidesaddle" snaps are legal as long as they are are in a smooth motion.

Edit: tpyos

cmathews · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 26, 2003, 03:57pm

is over the shoulder considered a "sidesaddle" snap??

PSU213 · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 26, 2003, 04:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by KEFerrell
Yes, "sidesaddle" snaps are legal as long as they are are in a smooth motion.

Edit: tpyos

Is sidesaddle a coaching term or...? If he is going to snap it over his shoulder I would find it hard to believe that he is going to be able to make a quick, contiuous, backward motion (I would think it would be particularly difficult for the motion to be backwards during the entire snap). I guess since I've never seen it, it would be difficult to rule on it.

Mike Simonds · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 26, 2003, 08:30pm

I would have to say that as long as the snap was legal there is nothing wrong with this play.

The snapper will have his hand(s) on the ball, and has to be completely motionless for at least one full second. Then he has to snap the ball in one continuous motion and the ball has to touch a backfield player or the ground. The other offensive players must be legal regarding encroachment, false starts, shifts, motions, etc.

Mike Simonds · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 26, 2003, 08:32pm

In the swinging gate formation the center can execute a legal snap that does not go between his legs as long as he takes a hold of the ball and pauses at least one full second prior to snapping, and he meets all the other requirements for a legal snap, etc.

Mike Simonds · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 26, 2003, 08:37pm

And of course you gentlemen are correct to penalize this as an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty against the offense.

The swinging gate formation is commonly used and therefore the defense is not deceived.

However, the over the shoulder snap is illegal when combined with language intended to deceive the defense.

Warrenkicker · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 26, 2003, 09:55pm

You have stated, word for word, how the play was run to cause the ruling to be added to the case book. This play was run here in Kansas about 5 years ago in a varsity game. The center told the QB that the wrong ball was on the field. The coach then held up a ball on the sideline and the QB took the ball from the center in a legal snap that didn't go through his legs. The QB then jogged toward his sideline and when he passed the defensive end he took off for a touchdown. The coach and the QB were on Letterman for than one. The new ruling came out the next year.

The use of talking to deceive the defense is what is illegal on this play. You would probably give the USC foul to the QB but I think the coach called the play and you might just put it on him.

Ron_B · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 29, 2003, 01:16am

How is this anything but unsportsmanlike?? If it is not I would like a ruling followed by some kind of logic. I say 15 yards against offense for deception.
And If I had my way, ban the coach from the league for not working the basics at that level. Yes, I know you want to win the game but what is more important?? I coached at this level for 8 years and won 7 city championships and the only thing I did close to a trick play was a doulble reverse. Teach the kids how to play the game correctly and they will become great high school players and some will go on to be college players and will someday thank you for that. Sure beats running to one of them digging a ditch and saying you were a great coach remember that play you called in grade school!!

Sorry so long, just hate crap plays like this!!

Thanks!!

mikesears · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 29, 2003, 07:29am

How is this sporting? The defense has no idea if the ball was legitimately snapped. They may fear being penalized for a dead-ball personal foul if they attempt to tackle the ball carrier.

UC prior to the snap!

As an official, I am going to specifically let the coach know this is illegal.

If you have a hard time with the UC call, try this:

Once you hear the words, "wrong ball", blow your whistle to kill the play. Then look at the ball and state, "Looks like the correct ball to me". Then go back to your position and wait for the ready-for-play.

William C · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 29, 2003, 12:08pm

What would tip me off - that something was not right would be them yelling ' 'wrong ball'.
We check the balls before the game and those are the ones they'll play with. We don't allow a different ball for different situations. Plus - if there's a problem with a ball - we know NOT to let them pick it up etc. They can stand up and ask for us to examine it -wetness etc. We'd kill any play where they just picked it up and started hollering for 'the correct ball' - cause there is no such thing.