Fair Catch signal

[john_faz]

Here's the situation (NFHS):

Punt returner signals for a fair catch but fails to catch the ball in flight. The scrimmage kick is grounded and bounces straight to the player who had just signaled for a fair catch. I whistled the ball dead at the spot of recovery and flagged the returner for invalid fair catch signal. My crew mates said this was not a foul but just a deadball so we picked up the flag.

My questions are: Does the ball become dead after a grounded scrimmage kick is possessed by Team R that signaled for a fair catch? and Is it a foul when a R player signals for a fair catch, fails to catch it in flight and then possesses after the kick is grounded?

Thanks for the help.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by john_faz

Does the ball become dead after a grounded scrimmage kick is possessed by Team R that signaled for a fair catch?

Any kick becomes dead if a FC signal has been given and R possesses the ball. It does not matter if it is grounded or not.

Originally Posted by john_faz

Is it a foul when a R player signals for a fair catch, fails to catch it in flight and then possesses after the kick is grounded

Not at all. All the FC signal does is allow that person protection from being hit after they catch the ball. It is not illegal to give the signal and not catch the ball. And think about it why would it be? What if he just could not catch the ball because it was not catchable from his position? That is not a penalty. The "penalty" is that his team cannot advance the ball.

Peace

[john_faz]

In this case, R has the ability to stop the ball from advancing further to his goal line. K then does not get the advantage of having the grounded scrimmage kick gain further yards. I understand there is no penalty on R but it seems like they have an advantage in a small way. Especially, since K can not tackle R because the ball is dead.

It seems to me that K is at a disadvantage. If R signals for a fair catch and then does not catch it on the fly, are we to assume that all K players must know a fair catch signal was given? even though the ball was not caught in flight. What happens if K tackles the R player right after possession is gained, would you consider it a personal foul - late hit or would you grant K some leeway?

[Welpe]

It is not a fair catch if the R player recovers a grounded scrimmage kick but the ball is dead because the signal was given. K should be given more leeway because it is not a fair catch but normal late hit rules will still apply.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by john_faz

In this case, R has the ability to stop the ball from advancing further to his goal line. K then does not get the advantage of having the grounded scrimmage kick gain further yards. I understand there is no penalty on R but it seems like they have an advantage in a small way. Especially, since K can not tackle R because the ball is dead.

That is where we get in trouble, we start putting advantage or a disadvantage in an action that is not illegal. K kicked the ball so they have the advantage of being able to field the ball if the ball is grounded. Why would you care what R can and cannot do? They are getting the ball. That is advantage enough.

Originally Posted by john_faz

It seems to me that K is at a disadvantage. If R signals for a fair catch and then does not catch it on the fly, are we to assume that all K players must know a fair catch signal was given? even though the ball was not caught in flight.

How else does K know there is a fair catch signal given in the first place? They obviously have to see the signal before the catch is made right? And by giving a FC signal, that R player cannot block. So R is making a sacrifice to make such a signal.

Originally Posted by john_faz

What happens if K tackles the R player right after possession is gained, would you consider it a personal foul - late hit or would you grant K some leeway?

It depends on if a catch is immediate or if the player is having trouble gaining possession of the ball. No hard, fast answer, just know that the ball is dead once R gains possession. But that does not mean K gets a free shot. The reason you signal the FC is to get protection. The player not giving a signal does not have protection to completely catch the ball without an expectation of being contacted. This is one of those HTBT situations we often talk about here.

Peace

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by john_faz

In this case, R has the ability to stop the ball from advancing further to his goal line. K then does not get the advantage of having the grounded scrimmage kick gain further yards. I understand there is no penalty on R but it seems like they have an advantage in a small way. Especially, since K can not tackle R because the ball is dead.

It seems to me that K is at a disadvantage. If R signals for a fair catch and then does not catch it on the fly, are we to assume that all K players must know a fair catch signal was given? even though the ball was not caught in flight. What happens if K tackles the R player right after possession is gained, would you consider it a personal foul - late hit or would you grant K some leeway?

The prohibition against advancing the ball, once a Fair Catch signal has been given by any R player is designed to limit what R can do with a kick when a signalled FC has not been completed. As with a completed FC, R surrenders it's right to advance the kick in return for the unimpeded opportunity to complete the FC. To allow R to regain the right to advance, after an unsuccessful attempt to complete a FC would be a significant disadvantage for K, which is avoided by simply declaring the ball dead once possession is secured regardless of whether the FC was successfully completed.

As to possible contact between K and R, as with most elements of contact between opponents, the primary differentiator between there being a foul, and not, is the judgment of the covering official in determining whether, or not thae contact rises to the level of rule being violated.

This is a game being played by young, student athletes, not a competition of precision measurements judged by precise engineering standards and compliance with the many rules of football are best concluded by review and consideration based on the intended purpose of the rules, rather than precise application of the verbiage of the rule.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by john_faz

My questions are:

(1) Does the ball become dead after a grounded scrimmage kick is possessed by Team R that signaled for a fair catch? and

(2) Is it a foul when a R player signals for a fair catch, fails to catch it in flight and then possesses after the kick is grounded?

Thanks for the help.

1. Yes. 4-2-2(g):
"The ball becomes dead and the down is ended:
g. Following a valid or invalid fair-catch signal given by any member of the
receiving team when a scrimmage kick or free kick is caught or recovered
by any member of the receiving team beyond, in or behind the neutral zone."

2. No, provided the signal occurs before the recovery, as your question suggests. 2-9-4:
"An invalid fair-catch signal is any signal by a receiver before the kick
is caught or recovered:
a. That does not meet the requirements of a valid signal.
b. After the kick has touched a receiver.
c. After the kick has touched the ground."