What would you do

benbret · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 20, 2010, 10:58pm

NFHS Rules. 3rd and goal. A 1 runs up the middle and fumbles on the 2 yard line and the ball bounces into the end zone. B1 recovers the fumble in the end zone and attemps to run out of the end zone. B2 blocks A2 in the back in the end zone. A3 then tackles B1 in the end zone by the face mask (15 yds).

whitehat · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 20, 2010, 11:47pm

Since B got the ball before they fouled they could retain possession if they declined A's facemask foul. However, since B had possesion of the ball in their EZ and fouled there, it would be a safety. Therefore, depending on the score B might want to accept the facemask foul, hence creating a double foul and offsetting and a replay of the down.

Point of discussion: I believe the above is by rule and yet we recently discussed the theory of this (on this forum or another..don't recall)since B did not force the ball into their own EZ then the enforcement spot becomes the 20. In that case they would certianly decline A's facemask and keep the ball after being penalized for the illegal block. 1st and 10 for B on their own 10
I like the 20 yd line being the basic spot in this case...but thats just me...

It is very late here, so correct me if I am a bit sleep deprived

Welpe · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 20, 2010, 11:48pm

Since B got the ball with clean hands, they have the choice of declining the penalty for A's foul to keep the ball or accepting the foul and causing a double foul which would offset the penalties and the down would be replayed.

JugglingReferee · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Aug 21, 2010, 03:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by benbret

3rd and goal. A 1 runs up the middle and fumbles on the 2 yard line and the ball bounces into the end zone. B1 recovers the fumble in the end zone and attemps to run out of the end zone. B2 blocks A2 in the back in the end zone. A3 then tackles B1 in the end zone by the face mask (15 yds).

CANADIAN RULING:

(Since we have only 3 downs, change the situation to 2nd Down.)

A will definitely accept the B penalty to lessen the effect of their penalty.

B obtained the ball with clean hands, and PBD is the EZ.

Apply the fouls from the B-20. B2's block in the back reads to be our 15-yard variety, so the penalties will offset at the B-20. Result: Team B 1/10 @ B-20.

mbyron · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Aug 21, 2010, 09:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitehat

Since B got the ball before they fouled they could retain possession if they declined A's facemask foul. However, since B had possesion of the ball in their EZ and fouled there, it would be a safety. Therefore, depending on the score B might want to accept the facemask foul, hence creating a double foul and offsetting and a replay of the down.

Point of discussion: I believe the above is by rule and yet we recently discussed the theory of this (on this forum or another..don't recall)since B did not force the ball into their own EZ then the enforcement spot becomes the 20. In that case they would certianly decline A's facemask and keep the ball after being penalized for the illegal block. 1st and 10 for B on their own 10
I like the 20 yd line being the basic spot in this case...but thats just me...

It is very late here, so correct me if I am a bit sleep deprived

I agree with the interp in the second half of your post.

The fumble happened FIRST, before B's foul in the EZ. So if the ball becomes dead in the EZ we have a TB, and the enforcement spot for fouls by B becomes the 20. Thus, the foul by B in its own EZ is NOT a safety in this case.

BroKen62 · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Aug 21, 2010, 11:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron

I agree with the interp in the second half of your post.

The fumble happened FIRST, before B's foul in the EZ. So if the ball becomes dead in the EZ we have a TB, and the enforcement spot for fouls by B becomes the 20. Thus, the foul by B in its own EZ is NOT a safety in this case.

I agree that the basic spot for enforcement is the 20, but because the spot of the foul was behind the basic spot, (behind the goal line) would that not be a safety if they decline A's penalty because of the all-but-one principle?

Robert Goodman · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Aug 21, 2010, 04:31pm

Also interesting is the timing of B's foul. What's the conversation with the referee like if the official who called B2's block in the back wasn't looking at the recovery and couldn't see which came first?

mbyron · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Aug 21, 2010, 04:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroKen62

I agree that the basic spot for enforcement is the 20, but because the spot of the foul was behind the basic spot, (behind the goal line) would that not be a safety if they decline A's penalty because of the all-but-one principle?

I think you're right. As I review the rules, I see no reason to think that ABO would be suspended here.

So B would certainly take the A penalty for a double foul and replay the down.

jemiller · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Aug 21, 2010, 04:42pm

I would think that the basic spot of enforcement would be the 20, since B recovered the ball in the EZ. Since they also fouled in the EZ however, I believe that the all but one principle would make it a spot foul and a safety if A accepts the block in the back penalty. Depending on the time, score, etc. B may just have to accept A's penalty and cause a double foul so that the down would be replayed.

Both fouls occurred after the change of possession. B could of course decline the penalty for A's face mask, retain the ball, but then it would be a safety because their foul was in the EZ.

OK...What I am missing... Jim

Welpe · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Aug 21, 2010, 06:42pm

You're not missing anything, Jim. This is all but one enforcement. A foul by the offense behind the basic spot is enforced from the spot of the foul.

Now if B fouls before they recover the fumble, then you have a double foul since B did not get the ball with clean hands and the down is replayed with no options given.