Is kicking a fumble legal?

[PackersFTW]

I saw a highlight of the Bengals game, where the snap went over the punter's head, and the punter ran after it and kicked it out of bounds so that the other team didn't recover it and run it in for a touchdown. I would have figured this to be illegal somehow, otherwise you could just kick it out of bounds after your team fumbles so that you retain possession. Maybe because it was 4th down it didn't matter? Still wouldn't there be some kind of penalty? (Could have been one, I don't know.) Still, it got me thinking about kicking fumbles (out of bounds or not) and all the rules that surround it.

[Cobra]

Yes, that is a foul...the kick was not a drop kick, punt, nor place kick. The defense must have declined the penalty as it was 4th down.

[mikesears]

The gamebook has this entry:

(2:31) (Punt formation) D.Colquitt Aborted. T.Gafford FUMBLES at KC 30, ball out of bounds at KC 7.
Penalty on KC-D.Colquitt, Illegal Touch Kick, declined. {Colquitt kicked the fumbled snap out of bounds without gaining possession, Colquitt
credited with a rush for 0 yards}


Penalty for the foul was declined.

[PackersFTW]

It says "without gaining possession". Does that mean you can boot a fumble 20 yards down field, and have your team go after it, or do you personally have to go recover the kicked ball? I assume the latter, otherwise it would make sense to kick a fumble forward in certain situations, such as where you have to score, but clearly won't be able to pick it up and run it in. BTW I never thought of checking the game log, which I've done before.

[Robert Goodman]

Since 1900 it's been illegal to kick a loose ball in American rules, but this is one of those situations where the penalty's not worse than the play. It's 4th down and the ball is loose in your end zone, what do you have to lose?

In Canadian football it's still legal to dribble a loose ball. However, if you dribble a loose ball that's behind your goal line out of bounds in goal, a situation unwary players sometimes think will be equivalent to touching it down for a 1- or 2-pt score, the other team has an option to scrimmage themselves, similarly to Rugby Union where it's a 5 m scrum.

So suppose you wanted to make the American rule more stringent, to make recovering the ball more favorable than illegally kicking or batting it. What would you do that wouldn't make it too great a punishment? The Canadian rule seems too stringent.

[PackersFTW]

I'll go try to Google this some more. I'm still confused about what happens if it's not 4th down, you boot it 20 yards down field, and the defense recovers the ball. Do they decline the penalty (which is what exactly, 10 yards? 15?)? What if the defense kicks it and then recovers? I'm guessing the offense accepts the penalty and it automatically reverts back to the offense or something?

[With_Two_Flakes]

In NCAA rules, it is a 15 yd basic spot penalty plus loss of down.

So if it is 4th and 10 from the 40, the ball sails over the Team A punters head and he panics and while it is bouncing around he illegally kicks it at (lets say) the 30 to prevent B from recovering it and it goes OOB at the 32. That would be 15yds from the spot of the foul and loss of down, so the next play would be 1st and 10 for B at the 15yd line. A big penalty indeed. No need for the White Hat even to ask an option of B as clearly the best option is to take the penalty.

Same scenario, but this time he illegally kicks it into his own EZ and it goes OOB out the EZ. This time the White Hat needs to ask B what they want. The result of the play is a Safety. But B may not want the 2pts and instead accept the penalty and have the ball themselves on the 15. The score, time remaining etc may well influence their decision.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by PackersFTW

I'll go try to Google this some more. I'm still confused about what happens if it's not 4th down, you boot it 20 yards down field, and the defense recovers the ball. Do they decline the penalty (which is what exactly, 10 yards? 15?)? What if the defense kicks it and then recovers? I'm guessing the offense accepts the penalty and it automatically reverts back to the offense or something?

I'm not going to look up how the NFL handles it but in Federation it is simple all but one enforcement.

If the offense has the ball and they fumble it will be a loose ball play if the fumble was in or behind the NZ and a running play if it happened beyond the NZ. Basic spot for a loose ball play is the previous spot and for a running play it is the end of the related run.

So A fumbles. Ball is on the ground and A kicks it; that is a foul. So if the foul happened beyond the basic spot the penalty (15 yards) is enforced from the basic spot. If it happened behind the basic spot then the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul. Of course the other team could decline the penalty if they wanted.

B will not be able to keep the ball if they foul while on defense. Just because the ball is loose does not mean that they are no longer of defense.

[With_Two_Flakes]

Originally Posted by PackersFTW

what happens if it's not 4th down, you boot it 20 yards down field, and the defense recovers the ball. Do they decline the penalty?

Probably Team B would decline the penalty in order to keep the ball. It is possible that there would be circumstances (Team A punter is poor, its a windy day, etc) when Team B may decide to have the penalty and push Team A back 15yds from the spot of the foul and loss of down, but usually B would want the ball themselves.

Originally Posted by PackersFTW

What if the defense kicks it and then recovers? I'm guessing the offense accepts the penalty and it automatically reverts back to the offense or something?

If Team B illegally kick it, then that would be enforced 15yds from the previous spot and might well be enough yards to give team A a new 1st down.

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by PackersFTW

I'll go try to Google this some more. I'm still confused about what happens if it's not 4th down, you boot it 20 yards down field, and the defense recovers the ball. Do they decline the penalty (which is what exactly, 10 yards? 15?)? What if the defense kicks it and then recovers? I'm guessing the offense accepts the penalty and it automatically reverts back to the offense or something?

Illegal kicking of a loose ball or ball in player possession is a 10 yard penalty in the NFL and the foul is enforced from the spot of the kick.

Regardless of the down, R (or B) has the right to decline the penalty and accept the result of the play. If they accept the penalty, K (or A) will replay the down after 10 yards are enforced from the spot of the illegal kick.

More information is needed to answer your last question. Did B (the defense) ever possess the ball before it became loose and was illegally kicked?

[APG]

NFL Rulebook 2009

12-1-9

No player may deliberately kick any loose ball or ball in player's possession.

Penalty: For illegally kicking the ball: Loss of 10 yards. For enforcement, treat as a foul during a backwards pass or fumble.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by PackersFTW

I'll go try to Google this some more. I'm still confused about what happens if it's not 4th down, you boot it 20 yards down field, and the defense recovers the ball. Do they decline the penalty (which is what exactly, 10 yards? 15?)? What if the defense kicks it and then recovers? I'm guessing the offense accepts the penalty and it automatically reverts back to the offense or something?

Packers, not sure why you're having trouble with this. If the defense had recovered the illegally kicked ball, then the result would have been the same. The defense would have declined the penalty and taken at the spot.

If he had kicked it downfield, then they might have accepted the penalty and forced them to re-kick. It would depend on field position, etc.

If the defense kicks it, then the foul would (probably) be penalized from the spot of the illegal kick, 1st down for the defensive team.

If it had occurred on 3rd down, the penalty would have been called. It might or might not have been accepted.

Had the defense accepted the penalty, then you replay 4th down. For obvious reasons, the defense would rathe rhave the ball.