T for Kicking

[Scooby]

Sit. A1 is just inside the three point line and shoots the ball, B1 blocks out A1 on her way down to the the floor pushing her back 2 feet. I have a foul on B1 and then A1 kicks at B1, but whiffs, with her kick. I start to warn B1 and get "hey you can't..." then I "T" her up.

Is this a good T? (I got no problem from her coach) But that does not mean if is the right or wrong call.
Should A1 be ejected?


Also, we had a play I was C the A1 was driving from the three point line to the basket. The T call a travel and from where I was I saw the B1 tip the ball before the travel. I got with C and he told me that he was blocked and did not see the tip. We gave the ball back to A (POI) and B's coach did not like this call.

How would you have handled the situation?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Scooby

Sit. A1 is just inside the three point line and shoots the ball, B1 blocks out A1 on her way down to the the floor pushing her back 2 feet. I have a foul on B1 and then A1 kicks at B1, but whiffs, with her kick. I start to warn B1 and get "hey you can't..." then I "T" her up.
Is this a good T? (I got no problem from her coach) But that does not mean if is the right or wrong call.
Should A1 be ejected?

The red above indicates you T'd her up because someone started to complain.

FWIW, I agree with the call. Good T. I wouldn't go flagrant unless the attempted kick leads to a fight.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Scooby

Sit. A1 is just inside the three point line and shoots the ball, B1 blocks out A1 on her way down to the the floor pushing her back 2 feet. I have a foul on B1 and then A1 kicks at B1, but whiffs, with her kick. I start to warn B1 and get "hey you can't..." then I "T" her up.

Is this a good T? (I got no problem from her coach) But that does not mean if is the right or wrong call.
Should A1 be ejected?

This is a no brainer tech IMO....could also easily be flagrant w/ ejection depending on the severity...is there that big of a leap from throwing a punch to kicking (basically throwing a punch with your foot)?

[deecee]

what would you do if B1 throws a punch and whiffs?

[Adam]

I don't think a kick is equal to a punch. Sometimes I've seen players "kick" in frustration, I've never seen a player "punch" out of just frustration.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

FWIW, I agree with the call. Good T.
I wouldn't go flagrant unless the attempted kick leads to a fight.

I think you have to say fight, or flagrant, because if it is an attempt to strike the opponent, you have a fight by rule.

SECTION 18 FIGHTING
Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:
ART. 1 . . . An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.
ART. 2 . . . An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act toward an opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting.

[ma_ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

FWIW, I agree with the call. Good T. I wouldn't go flagrant unless the attempted kick leads to a fight.

So a missed punch is ignored unless that leads to a fight as well?

I've got a flagrant tech on A1. If you ignore that now, and something happens later in the game between A1 and B1, you're just asking for trouble...

Originally Posted by Scooby

Sit. A1 is just inside the three point line and shoots the ball, B1 blocks out A1 on her way down to the the floor pushing her back 2 feet. I have a foul on B1 and then A1 kicks at B1, but whiffs, with her kick.

How would you have handled the situation?

Inform her that karate classes are down the hall & to the left...

[OHBBREF]

This is one of those situations where you have to go by the rule, IMO,
because there are too many varibles involved that can get you into deep trouble with liability and all that legal stuff.

Also the actions of B could also be ruled a part of the fight because the kick is a retaliation for that action. This is usually the result of some excessive contact but this is something you have to take a hard look at too.

We had a situation last Saturday where a 3 point try was taken and the defender was about five feet away then just completely hip checked the shooter into the stands - we have to be right on top of that - there was no further problem (there were two whistles lead and trail) - the trail moved in immediately made sure everything was settled down then we talked about it (NCAA) and made the foul into an intentional based on the excessive contact.

after the game we got together and discussed what would have happend if we had anyone jump up to start a fight or their had been a fight, we determined the player with the first contact would have gone with everyone else involved because that was the action that created the fallout or fight.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Scooby

Sit. A1 is just inside the three point line and shoots the ball, B1 blocks out A1 on her way down to the the floor pushing her back 2 feet. I have a foul on B1 and then A1 kicks at B1, but whiffs, with her kick. I start to warn B1 and get "hey you can't..." then I "T" her up.

Is this a good T? (I got no problem from her coach) But that does not mean if is the right or wrong call.
Should A1 be ejected?


Also, we had a play I was C the A1 was driving from the three point line to the basket. The T call a travel and from where I was I saw the B1 tip the ball before the travel. I got with C and he told me that he was blocked and did not see the tip. We gave the ball back to A (POI) and B's coach did not like this call.

How would you have handled the situation?

I'm assuming that you called the T on A1 - correct?

If so, then it should be flagrant as attempting to kick is included in the attempting to punch - they are the same thing and are both considered flagrant.

[slow whistle]

The reason I brought the severity of the act into the equation is that you could have a situation where you have sort of a half hearted kick at an opponent that is more just like "get away from me" - more like a push than a "kick"...would you automatically eject someone for pushing? I think this is usually a HTBT situation in order to determine if you have flagrant or not...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

The reason I brought the severity of the act into the equation is that you could have a situation where you have sort of a half hearted kick at an opponent that is more just like "get away from me" - more like a push than a "kick"...would you automatically eject someone for pushing? I think this is usually a HTBT situation in order to determine if you have flagrant or not...

I think this is what I was thinking of as I read the OP. The rule doesn't appear to leave a lot of room for judgment, though.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

So a missed punch is ignored unless that leads to a fight as well?

That is absolutely the opposite of what I said. I very clearly said I don't see the two as equal; although I see the rule is clearly against me on this.

As stated, I saw the kick in the OP as closer to a push than a punch; like she wasn't even really trying to make contact.

[deecee]

When i stated my previous question about what would you do on a punch and whiff I was merely trying to stimulate the OP to think that if they deemed this a similar situation or if it was just a "aw schucks" kind of kick that wasnt meant at the player but looked that way.

Part of the job is to judge motive and intent -- either way from what you described its either a T or a no call. Flagrant sounds a bit excessive unless the kick was MEANT for the player. If so then I would go flagrant. Push and kick are no way near similar, I would put kick and punch in the same category.