Kick Catch Interference

[ref1986]

"After the kick has been touched by a receiver" means "after the kick has been touched by a receiver." Touched is touched. Once he touches it there cannot be KCI. I don't like the rule, but there are several NF rules I don't like.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by ref1986

"After the kick has been touched by a receiver" means "after the kick has been touched by a receiver." Touched is touched. Once he touches it there cannot be KCI. I don't like the rule, but there are several NF rules I don't like.

Are you suggesting it's humanly possible to differentiate between touching and completing a (clean) catch (non bobble, non-muff, non-tipped)?

[insatty]

Simultaneous or nearly simultaneous contact should be KCI. R is entitled to an "unimpeded opportunity to CATCH the kick." NCAA 6-4-1 (emphasis added). "Catch" is defined as "POSSESSION of a live ball in flight." 2-7-a-1 (emphasis added). "A player gains possession when he secures the ball by holding or controlling it while contacting the ground." 2-2-5-a

Thus, the opportunity to catch the kick that R is entitled to includes the opportunity to secure or control the ball while contacting the ground. Simultaneous or near simultaneous contact does not permit the opportunity to catch the kick.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ref1986

"After the kick has been touched by a receiver" means "after the kick has been touched by a receiver." Touched is touched. Once he touches it there cannot be KCI. I don't like the rule, but there are several NF rules I don't like.

You may choose to ignore the case play that I cited, which has the force of a rule. As I've said, our state interpreter made clear that the operative test of KCI is an "unmolested opportunity to catch the ball," and his examples were as I've described.

[bigjohn]

and since there is no clear rule, no two crews call it the same and there in lies the lack of consistency that I hate about HS officiating!

It should be called the same in every game!

[mikesears]

Ref1986 is right on the money for NFHS rules. Once R touches the kick, KCI no longer applies. If he wants protection from contact, he can signal for a fair catch. But if he wants the opportunity advance, he takes the risk of being contacted after he touches the ball.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

and since there is no clear rule, no two crews call it the same and there in lies the lack of consistency that I hate about HS officiating! It should be called the same in every game!

This rule is only unclear, if you want to be unclear. Unless you have some super human visual blessing that allows you split this gnat's eyelash to the extent you can separate the initial touching of a kick from the (clean)catching of that kick you're just blowing smoke.

As soon as HS teams reach a level of playing the exact same in every game, we'll be able to officiate exactly the same, but not until.

[Jimmie24]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

and since there is no clear rule, no two crews call it the same and there in lies the lack of consistency that I hate about HS officiating!

It should be called the same in every game!

Can we also put in their NFL officiating and NCAA officiating? At every level there is going to be a lack of consistency in calling certain plays. If that is something that you truly hate maybe a change in your profession is in order. I can't think of any high school level officials who decide that no matter what they are going to try and be different than the crew the previous week. If the quality of officiating is that poor maybe you should switch sides and make it better.

[Jimmie24]

I think Insatty hit the nail on the head here. When in doubt go back to the definitiions. A kick ends when a player gains possession or when the ball becomes dead while not in player possession.

Possession says the player must control it. Thus touching can not be possessing and the kick can not have ended.

We should not allow the K player the free shot on the R player. Yes, it is a very impressive hit and will draw plenty of "oohs" and "aaaahs" from the crowd.

I would call it KCI.

[ref1986]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You may choose to ignore the case play that I cited, which has the force of a rule. As I've said, our state interpreter made clear that the operative test of KCI is an "unmolested opportunity to catch the ball," and his examples were as I've described.

I'm not ignoring it. The casebook example you cite is a K player obstructing R's path to the ball. That's the context in which the "unmolested opportunity" statement is made. Our state rules interpreter, and all the chapter rules interpreters I know, say this is not KCI. I thought this was pretty settled case law in HS. Also read the statement in the casebook that says if the casebook conflicts with the rule book, the rule book trumps.

[Robert Goodman]

Pass interference protection ends when the ball is touched by or touches a player, and it seems likely the rules that were adopted for kicks and passes intended the same thing. Of course you never know when some years separate the adoption of the provisions, the example being in the other thread of the non-expanded neutral zone for purposes of determining whether R has touched a field goal attempt on their side of their line of scrimmage.

In NFL rules (probably an older wording of NCAA rules) the protection is described as "opportunity to make a fair catch", assuming the fiction that the receiver might up until the last instant be able to signal for one.

Robert

[UpNorthRef]

Let's not forget that this is a Federation rule that is predicated upon maintaining some measurable degree of safety in a highly dangerous sport. Why pick at the edges. Just because the receivers skill level (or luck) allowed him to complete the catch of the kick does not mean we give K the right to endanger them and give them a "pass" on the KCI foul when they have hit R prior to completing the catch.

[insatty]

Even under NFHS rules, K may not touch the ball or R "while the kick is in flight." A kick ends when R gains "possession" of the ball. Player "possession" is defined as the player "holding or controlling" the ball.

Thus, K may not touch R until R holds or controls the ball. For consistency and safety, NFHS officials should officiate KCI as NCAA officials do. A defenseless R should not be clocked until he has the chance to touch, secure, and then control the ball. Only then may R protect himself from oncoming tacklers.

As the NCAA rule expresses, when in doubt it is KCI.

[NorCalRef12]

Originally Posted by insatty

Even under NFHS rules, K may not touch the ball or R "while the kick is in flight." A kick ends when R gains "possession" of the ball. Player "possession" is defined as the player "holding or controlling" the ball.

Thus, K may not touch R until R holds or controls the ball. For consistency and safety, NFHS officials should officiate KCI as NCAA officials do. A defenseless R should not be clocked until he has the chance to touch, secure, and then control the ball. Only then may R protect himself from oncoming tacklers.

As the NCAA rule expresses, when in doubt it is KCI.

I disagree with your reasoning, but agree with your conclusion. The NFHS rules state that while "...any scrimmage kick is in flight beyond the neutral zone to the receiver’s goal line, K shall not: Touch the ball or R, unless blocked into the ball or R, or to ward off a blocker;" The rule goes on to say "This prohibition applies even when no fair-catch signal is given, but it does not apply ... after a scrimmage kick has been touched by a receiver who was clearly beyond the neutral zone at the time of touching." Since touching precedes possession, the K players do not have to wait until the kick has ended.

As I stated in my original post on this, when K contacts R at essentially the same time that the ball gets there, then the official should ere on the side of KCI. K should not be allowed to get a cheap muff and recover the ball after they had failed to reach the LTG on their previous series.

If you use the logic that K has a completely unmolested opportunity to make a "Catch", which is gaining possession of a loose ball in flight, then I would teach my return man to muff the kick into the air all the way down the field because K could not legally touch him until the ball hit the ground or he gained possession.

[mikesears]

Originally Posted by insatty

Even under NFHS rules, K may not touch the ball or R "while the kick is in flight." A kick ends when R gains "possession" of the ball. Player "possession" is defined as the player "holding or controlling" the ball.

Thus, K may not touch R until R holds or controls the ball. For consistency and safety, NFHS officials should officiate KCI as NCAA officials do. A defenseless R should not be clocked until he has the chance to touch, secure, and then control the ball. Only then may R protect himself from oncoming tacklers.

As the NCAA rule expresses, when in doubt it is KCI.

You forgot the rest of the rule.

This prohibition applies even when no fair-catch signal is given, but it does not apply after a free kick has been touched by a receiver, or after a scrimmage kick has been touched by a receiver who was clearly beyond the neutral zone at the time of touching.

So touching the ball removes the restriction.


Here is another problem with simply saying that K cannot touch R while the ball is in flight.

R signals for a fair catch. R muffs the attempt to catch the kick into the air. K contacts him to possess the ball. Your reading would call this KCI. Casebook play 6.5.6E says this is legal.