Complete Pass, Tack on RTP?

[FredFan7]

NFHS:

THird and 10 for team A at its own 20. Team A completes a pass to the 50 yard line. Team B is guilty of roughing the passer. Do you tack on the yardage?

This is a loose ball play so usually the answer is no tack on; the spot of enforcement is the previous spot (A20) so A would have to decline the penalty to keep the play to the 50. I'll go look it up in the book, but I thought I'd also ask here.

[Reffing Rev.]

Roughing the Passer is one of the exceptions... Roughing the passer is always enforced from the the end of the last run when the last run ends beyond the neutral zone. So in other words...yes...1st and 10 at the B 35.

This enforcement is also one of those reasons its really nice to remember to bag fumbles beyond the LOS.

A1's pass is complete to A80 who fumbles the ball at the 50. B recovers the ball at the 45 and is downed immediately. B99 is called for roughing the passer on the play. Enforcement is from the end of the last run which ended at the 50. So 1st and 10 at the 35.

[ppaltice]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Roughing the Passer is one of the exceptions... Roughing the passer is always enforced from the the end of the last run when the last run ends beyond the neutral zone. So in other words...yes...1st and 10 at the B 35.

This enforcement is also one of those reasons its really nice to remember to bag fumbles beyond the LOS.

A1's pass is complete to A80 who fumbles the ball at the 50. B recovers the ball at the 45 and is downed immediately. B99 is called for roughing the passer on the play. Enforcement is from the end of the last run which ended at the 50. So 1st and 10 at the 35.

The rule is for roughing the passer the enforcement spot is the end of the last run when the run ends beyond the neutral zone and there has been no change of possession.

The case you presented has a changed of possession. So enforcement from previous spot.

[mbyron]

ppaltice is correct.

Originally Posted by Rule 9-5-4

PENALTY:
... Roughing passer (Art. 4) – (S34) – 15 yards and a first down
from end of last run when last run ends beyond the neutral zone and there has
been no change of team possession, or otherwise 15 yards and first down from
previous spot.

[Reffing Rev.]

Interesting...

i was told by the MO state interpreter at a clinic a couple of years ago that the COP part of RTP refers to when the COP occurs before there is a run beyond the NZ by team A. In other words if Team A does not have a run beyond the NZ then it would be previous spot enforcement. I know this because the play I posted is exactly what happened on the field, and what you say is exactly how we enforced it, but the clinician and interpreter told us we were wrong.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Interesting...

i was told by the MO state interpreter at a clinic a couple of years ago that the COP part of RTP refers to when the COP occurs before there is a run beyond the NZ by team A. In other words if Team A does not have a run beyond the NZ then it would be previous spot enforcement. I know this because the play I posted is exactly what happened on the field, and what you say is exactly how we enforced it, but the clinician and interpreter told us we were wrong.

End-of-run enforcement applies, as the rule plainly says, when the "last run ends beyond the neutral zone AND there has been no change of team possession." By that rule, we should use previous spot enforcement if EITHER (a) the last run ended in or behind the NZ OR (b) there is a change of possession. Since your play involves a COP, it should be previous spot enforcement.

Perhaps your experts were thinking of this case play:

Originally Posted by Case Book

9.4.4 SITUATION C: A1’s pass on fourth and 15 from A’s 40 is complete to A2
at midfield. During the pass, A1 is roughed by B1. A2 advances to B’s 30 where
he fumbles the ball out of bounds at B’s: (a) 28-, or (b) 32-yard line. RULING: In
both (a) and (b), if the penalty is accepted, it is administered from the end of A2’s
run which is B’s 30-yard line.

The difference here is that this play involves no COP: hence end-of-run enforcement. The rule does not mention that enforcement depends on where a COP occurs -- your experts seem to have made that up. Given the details of your play, I still conclude that you got the enforcement correct, your experts' opinions notwithstanding.

The rule also seems fair to me: if the offense completes the pass despite RTP and doesn't turn the ball over, end-of-run enforcement provides additional disincentive for RTP; if, however, they complete the pass only to turn it over, take that failure into account and enforce from the previous spot.

[Forksref]

The rule is pretty clear:

2 situations where the enforcement is from the end of the run:

1- "when last run ends beyond the neutral zone."
2- "and there has been no change of team possession."

"or otherwise 15 yards and first down from previous spot."

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Forksref

The rule is pretty clear:

2 situations where the enforcement is from the end of the run:

1- "when last run ends beyond the neutral zone."
2- "and there has been no change of team possession."

"or otherwise 15 yards and first down from previous spot."

That's not correct. There's ONE situation where enforcement is from the end of the run, namely the situation that includes BOTH of your (1) and (2).

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbyron

End-of-run enforcement applies, as the rule plainly says, when the "last run ends beyond the neutral zone AND there has been no change of team possession."

I think the problem there is with interpreting "has been". Some of you seem to think it refers to the entire down, while others think it refers to the time before there was a run that ended beyond the neutral zone. Given the context, I think the latter -- that if CoP occurred following a run that ended beyond the NZ, the spot is that of the end of that run. Otherwise it seems silly -- why would a team lose an advantageous enforcement spot just because following all that, a turnover occurred?

Robert

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I think the problem there is with interpreting "has been". Some of you seem to think it refers to the entire down, while others think it refers to the time before there was a run that ended beyond the neutral zone. Given the context, I think the latter -- that if CoP occurred following a run that ended beyond the NZ, the spot is that of the end of that run. Otherwise it seems silly -- why would a team lose an advantageous enforcement spot just because following all that, a turnover occurred?

Robert

How could A have a run beyond the NZ after they turn the ball over to B?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbyron

How could A have a run beyond the NZ after they turn the ball over to B?

Who said it had to be A's run? And who said it couldn't be after 2 CoP?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Who said it had to be A's run? And who said it couldn't be after 2 CoP?

We're talking about roughing the passer. Only A can have a legal passer who might be roughed. Of course it has to be A's run.

The number of COPs (greater than 0) is irrelevant to enforcement. That is, if you've got at least one, it's previous spot.

The interpretative confusion you seem to think exists is nonsensical.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbyron

We're talking about roughing the passer. Only A can have a legal passer who might be roughed. Of course it has to be A's run.

How does that follow? The passage quoted in the rules only specifies a spot from which enforcement may be measured following RTP. It says nothing about whose run has to have ended. The only way you know this is from the provision about CoP. If you know no change of possession occurred before the end of the run, then you know it had to have been a run by A.

The number of COPs (greater than 0) is irrelevant to enforcement. That is, if you've got at least one, it's previous spot.

The interpretative confusion you seem to think exists is nonsensical.

Then why do we have one interpret'n cited by Reffing Rev and another by you? And I think the one that was referred to by Reffing Rev, whether he himself believes it or not, is the correct one. The rules makers wanted the non-offending team to be able to benefit in terms of enforcement spot by a completed pass by their own team and a run beyond the previous spot, and not to lose that benefit based on subsequent loss of ball. The only loss of incentive is by the offending team, for whom once the ball is possessed by A beyond the previous spot, there is no benefit for a turnover greater than for a tackle.

Suppose it were an "ordinary" foul by the defense such as a personal foul or illegal use of hands on a running play. The enforcement would be from the end of the run. Why would the penalty for RTP be any less advantageous? The foul occurs while the ball is loose, so the rules makers wanted to allow an equivalent sort of advantage by allowing the non-fouling team to complete the pass and advance before the penalty is considered. Loss of the ball subsequent to such an advance wouldn't affect the enforcement spot any more than it would subsequent to a run during which a foul by the defense occurred.

Robert

[Reffing Rev.]

I agree with the group about what the rule says,

It was July 2005 in Columbia MO, I've moved twice since then and had some sacramental wine, but I remember the interpreter explaining something like, "The purpose of the special enforcement is to allow the offense to keep any yardage they gain by completing a pass when there is roughing. To take away that yardage as a result of a subsequent turnover violates the intent of the rule."

I agree with mbyron about the letter of the law, but I am sympathetic with the interpreter's spirit of the law.

[Welpe]

Robert, the language of the rule is not as complicated as you make it out to be.

Read it again, it is very straight forward.

PENALTY:
... Roughing passer (Art. 4) – (S34) – 15 yards and a first down
from end of last run when last run ends beyond the neutral zone and there has
been no change of team possession, or otherwise 15 yards and first down from
previous spot.

There are two conditions that must be met in order for there to be enforcement from the end of the last run. The run must end beyond the neutral zone AND there must not have been a change of team possession.

BOTH of these conditions must be met. If there has been a change of team possession, regardless of the number of changes in team possession or whom is in possession of the ball at the end of the down, then BOTH conditions have not been met.