Touchback/Safety penalty

[Reffing Rev.]

Our crew study group came up with this one tonight...at first I thought it was straight forward but I want to see what you guys think...


The score A-6, B-7 with 1 minute to play in the game. A's ball 4th and goal at the 10. A1 throws a legal forward pass which is intercepted by B1 in the end zone. B1 immediately after making the catch in celebrating his teams stop of A throws the ball which lands at the 20 yard line. B1 was never down.

Ruling:

[bigjohn]

ART. 2 . . . It is a safety when:


c. A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and
enforcement is from a spot in his end zone; or throws an illegal forward
pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined in a situation which
leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass and with the ball
having been forced into the end zone by the passing team.

[Forksref]

That is as bad as the play in a state final (I think it was Idaho), where A was ahead by one and the QB wanted to run out the clock and he ran backwards to use up time and ended up in his EZ. He either downed the ball (can't remember the details) or ran out of the back of EZ as time expired.

In the OP, John nailed it. Safety. Or in the current news terminology: the player, "acted stupidly."

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Our crew study group came up with this one tonight...at first I thought it was straight forward but I want to see what you guys think...


The score A-6, B-7 with 1 minute to play in the game. A's ball 4th and goal at the 10. A1 throws a legal forward pass which is intercepted by B1 in the end zone. B1 immediately after making the catch in celebrating his teams stop of A throws the ball which lands at the 20 yard line. B1 was never down.

Ruling:

CANADIAN RULING:

Offside pass subject to penalty. Live ball.

If A recovers, it is their ball.

If B recovers, A will accept the offside pass and give B the ball at the B-20.

[bigjohn]

doesn't matter that it was incomplete, it was an Illegal FP from the EZ.

ART. 3 . . . A change of possession occurs when the opponent gains player
possession during the down.

[Welpe]

It doesn't matter that team A put the ball in the end zone, as B committed the foul and it was behind the basic spot.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by Forksref

That is as bad as the play in a state final (I think it was Idaho), where A was ahead by one and the QB wanted to run out the clock and he ran backwards to use up time and ended up in his EZ. He either downed the ball (can't remember the details) or ran out of the back of EZ as time expired.

In the OP, John nailed it. Safety. Or in the current news terminology: the player, "acted stupidly."

It was Washington state. The QB was conceding a safety, ran into the end zone and simply dropped the ball. An alert defender fell on it.

[michrefdh]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Our crew study group came up with this one tonight...at first I thought it was straight forward but I want to see what you guys think...


The score A-6, B-7 with 1 minute to play in the game. A's ball 4th and goal at the 10. A1 throws a legal forward pass which is intercepted by B1 in the end zone. B1 immediately after making the catch in celebrating his teams stop of A throws the ball which lands at the 20 yard line. B1 was never down.

Ruling:

I'ld say its a touchback (NFHS rules). Penalty enforced from the 20 yard line.

Here's my logic, feel free to disagree if you have a point to make as its an interesting situation.

Force that put the ball into the endzone was the throwing team, which I think is the main factor in determining touchback or safety. Defender caught the ball in the endzone, still a live ball in the endzone, but the force putting it in the endzone was the offense not defense. When he throws the ball forward, it is an illegal incomplete forward pass (if the opposing team would have caught it, its theirs because its still live till it hits the ground). But since it went incomplete, it became a dead ball with the spot of enforcement the point where he threw the ball, which is still in the endzone. But because the force into the endzone was still originally applied by the other team, its still a touchback and the penalty is enforced from the 20.

Anybody else have any opinions? Not saying I'm right, just my understanding of the rules.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by michrefdh

Force that put the ball into the endzone was the throwing team, which I think is the main factor in determining touchback or safety. Defender caught the ball in the endzone, still a live ball in the endzone, but the force putting it in the endzone was the offense not defense. When he throws the ball forward, it is an illegal incomplete forward pass (if the opposing team would have caught it, its theirs because its still live till it hits the ground). But since it went incomplete, it became a dead ball with the spot of enforcement the point where he threw the ball, which is still in the endzone. But because the force into the endzone was still originally applied by the other team, its still a touchback and the penalty is enforced from the 20.

Anybody else have any opinions? Not saying I'm right, just my understanding of the rules.

Your answer seems to ignore the COP.

[michrefdh]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Your answer seems to ignore the COP.

I'm assuming your referring to BigJohn above


c. A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and
enforcement is from a spot in his end zone; or throws an illegal forward
pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined in a situation which
leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass and with the ball
having been forced into the end zone by the passing team.

But the defender wasn't on offense, they were on defense, so that wouldn't apply, but again the key even in that rule is who forced the ball into the endzone "illegal pass and with the ball having been forced into the end zone by the passing team."

In the situation, the original offense applied the force that put the ball into the endzone. If the defender caught the ball in the field of play, or exited the endzone then went back in, then its a safetly, but if he caught it in the endzone, and never brought it out, and the ball became dead there (upon the incomplete illegal forward pass hitting the ground), its a touchback.

[michrefdh]

8-5 Art 3 d regarding touchbacks.


Art 3 ...It is a touchback when:
d. "A forward pass is intercepted in B's end zone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

Even if B committs a penalty there, its still a touchback, and the penalty would then be enforced from the 20.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by michrefdh

8-5 Art 3 d regarding touchbacks.


Art 3 ...It is a touchback when:
d. "A forward pass is intercepted in B's end zone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

Even if B committs a penalty there, its still a touchback, and the penalty would then be enforced from the 20.

But it did not become dead there in Bs possession. The ball became dead when the pass fell incomplete.

[bigjohn]

and it is an Illegal forward pass from the end zone.

c. A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and
enforcement is from a spot in his end zone; or throws an illegal forward
pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined in a situation which
leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass and with the ball
having been forced into the end zone by the passing team.



SECTION 43 TEAM DESIGNATIONS
ART. 1 . . . The offense is the team which is in possession of the ball. The
opponent is the defense.


Once he caught the ball he was on offense, No?

[ppaltice]

Originally Posted by michrefdh

But the defender wasn't on offense, they were on defense, so that wouldn't apply, but again the key even in that rule is who forced the ball into the endzone "illegal pass and with the ball having been forced into the end zone by the passing team."

Read 2-43. The offense is the team in possession of the ball. When Team B intercepts the ball, they are on offense by rule.

So, although the basic spot is the succeeding spot (20 yard line), the All-But-One principle is in affect. The spot of the penalty is in B's EZ. It is a safety.

[michrefdh]

c. A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and
enforcement is from a spot in his end zone; or throws an illegal forward
pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined in a situation which
leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass and with the ball
having been forced into the end zone by the passing team.

Still the key is force, the team that intercepted still didn't apply the force that put the ball into the endzone.