Touchback/Safety penalty

[michrefdh]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Our crew study group came up with this one tonight...at first I thought it was straight forward but I want to see what you guys think...


The score A-6, B-7 with 1 minute to play in the game. A's ball 4th and goal at the 10. A1 throws a legal forward pass which is intercepted by B1 in the end zone. B1 immediately after making the catch in celebrating his teams stop of A throws the ball which lands at the 20 yard line. B1 was never down.

Ruling:

I'ld say its a touchback (NFHS rules). Penalty enforced from the 20 yard line.

Here's my logic, feel free to disagree if you have a point to make as its an interesting situation.

Force that put the ball into the endzone was the throwing team, which I think is the main factor in determining touchback or safety. Defender caught the ball in the endzone, still a live ball in the endzone, but the force putting it in the endzone was the offense not defense. When he throws the ball forward, it is an illegal incomplete forward pass (if the opposing team would have caught it, its theirs because its still live till it hits the ground). But since it went incomplete, it became a dead ball with the spot of enforcement the point where he threw the ball, which is still in the endzone. But because the force into the endzone was still originally applied by the other team, its still a touchback and the penalty is enforced from the 20.

Anybody else have any opinions? Not saying I'm right, just my understanding of the rules.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by michrefdh

Force that put the ball into the endzone was the throwing team, which I think is the main factor in determining touchback or safety. Defender caught the ball in the endzone, still a live ball in the endzone, but the force putting it in the endzone was the offense not defense. When he throws the ball forward, it is an illegal incomplete forward pass (if the opposing team would have caught it, its theirs because its still live till it hits the ground). But since it went incomplete, it became a dead ball with the spot of enforcement the point where he threw the ball, which is still in the endzone. But because the force into the endzone was still originally applied by the other team, its still a touchback and the penalty is enforced from the 20.

Anybody else have any opinions? Not saying I'm right, just my understanding of the rules.

Your answer seems to ignore the COP.

[michrefdh]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Your answer seems to ignore the COP.

I'm assuming your referring to BigJohn above


c. A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and
enforcement is from a spot in his end zone; or throws an illegal forward
pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined in a situation which
leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass and with the ball
having been forced into the end zone by the passing team.

But the defender wasn't on offense, they were on defense, so that wouldn't apply, but again the key even in that rule is who forced the ball into the endzone "illegal pass and with the ball having been forced into the end zone by the passing team."

In the situation, the original offense applied the force that put the ball into the endzone. If the defender caught the ball in the field of play, or exited the endzone then went back in, then its a safetly, but if he caught it in the endzone, and never brought it out, and the ball became dead there (upon the incomplete illegal forward pass hitting the ground), its a touchback.

[michrefdh]

8-5 Art 3 d regarding touchbacks.


Art 3 ...It is a touchback when:
d. "A forward pass is intercepted in B's end zone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

Even if B committs a penalty there, its still a touchback, and the penalty would then be enforced from the 20.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by michrefdh

8-5 Art 3 d regarding touchbacks.


Art 3 ...It is a touchback when:
d. "A forward pass is intercepted in B's end zone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

Even if B committs a penalty there, its still a touchback, and the penalty would then be enforced from the 20.

But it did not become dead there in Bs possession. The ball became dead when the pass fell incomplete.

[bigjohn]

and it is an Illegal forward pass from the end zone.

c. A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and
enforcement is from a spot in his end zone; or throws an illegal forward
pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined in a situation which
leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass and with the ball
having been forced into the end zone by the passing team.



SECTION 43 TEAM DESIGNATIONS
ART. 1 . . . The offense is the team which is in possession of the ball. The
opponent is the defense.


Once he caught the ball he was on offense, No?

[michrefdh]

c. A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and
enforcement is from a spot in his end zone; or throws an illegal forward
pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined in a situation which
leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass and with the ball
having been forced into the end zone by the passing team.

Still the key is force, the team that intercepted still didn't apply the force that put the ball into the endzone.

[KWH]

Originally Posted by michrefdh

8-5 Art 3 d regarding touchbacks.


Art 3 ...It is a touchback when:
d. "A forward pass is intercepted in B's end zone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

Even if B committs a penalty there, its still a touchback, and the penalty would then be enforced from the 20.

michrefdh-
Perhaps this will help.
In your original study group play, yes, B intercepted the ball in B's endzone, however, the ball did not become dead there, and, because it did not become dead there, 8-5-3d is NOT the applicable rule.

What actually happended in your play is the offense, no longer B, (See 2-43-1 & 2-43-2) actually committed a foul in there own endzone. And since, a player on offense committed a foul for which the penalty is accepted and enfocement is from the spot of the foul, 8-5-2c IS the applicable rule, and, the result of your study group play IS a safety.

Again, read Rules 2-43-1 & 2-43-2 and it should help clear the air.

Oh and michrefdh, that is not just an opinion as you previously suggested,
rather, that IS the correct application of NFHS rulies!

I hope this helps.

[VALJ]

Casebook 10.4.6.B is the closest I can find to this play.

B1 intercepts A's pass in B's EZ, B2 clips A9 at B's 10-yard line after the change of possession. B1 then fumbles in B's EZ and the ball rolls out of the EZ and out of bounds at B's 2 yard line. RULING: The penalty is enforced under the all-but-one principle. The end of the run is the goal line and the basic spot is the 20-yard line. The penalty would be enforced half the distance, fista and 10 got B on the 5 yard line.

It's not quite analagous, since in the casebook play the penalty happened in the field of play, but it reinforces that the foul in this case is enforced as a spot foul under all-but one.

Though actually, I think somebody quoted this rule earlier, and I can't see why this wouldn't apply:

10-5-4: If the offensive team throws an illegal forward pass from its end zone or commits any other foul for which the penalty is accepted and measurement is from on or behind its goal line, it is a safety.

B's become the offensive team by gaining possession of the ball, and committed an illegal forward pass from the EZ. Right?

[michrefdh]

[QUOTE=KWH;618235]michrefdh-
Perhaps this will help.
In your original study group play, yes, B intercepted the ball in B's endzone, however, the ball did not become dead there, and, because it did not become dead there, 8-5-3d is NOT the applicable rule.

So then, suppose in the situation originally posted, the kid threw the ball up in the air, yes it still went forward, but still landed in the endzone or out of bounds behind the goal line, and therfore is dead in the endzone. Does that affect the ruling at all?

And another situation, B1 intercepts in the endzone, B2 commits a clip in the endzone, but then B1 either downs it in the endzone, or is tackled in the endzone, therefore the ball is dead in the endzone. Does that change anything vs the original situation?

Again, I in these situations, I still see a conflict in rule 8-5 art 3-d "It is a touchback when...d. A forward pass is intercepted in B's endzone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

P.S. I'm just trying to understand the situation and the application of the rules, and not just endlessly debate.

[VALJ]

[QUOTE=michrefdh;618254]

Originally Posted by KWH

michrefdh-
Perhaps this will help.
In your original study group play, yes, B intercepted the ball in B's endzone, however, the ball did not become dead there, and, because it did not become dead there, 8-5-3d is NOT the applicable rule.

So then, suppose in the situation originally posted, the kid threw the ball up in the air, yes it still went forward, but still landed in the endzone or out of bounds behind the goal line, and therfore is dead in the endzone. Does that affect the ruling at all?

And another situation, B1 intercepts in the endzone, B2 commits a clip in the endzone, but then B1 either downs it in the endzone, or is tackled in the endzone, therefore the ball is dead in the endzone. Does that change anything vs the original situation?

Again, I in these situations, I still see a conflict in rule 8-5 art 3-d "It is a touchback when...d. A forward pass is intercepted in B's endzone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

P.S. I'm just trying to understand the situation and the application of the rules, and not just endlessly debate.

Not a problem at all, Mich - this is how we improve!

You're correct that - without a penalty - 8-5-3-d is what would apply in this situation. The penalty in any case changes that, though. After B gains possession, if they commit a foul in their own EZ, that penalty (if accepted) will result in a safety. They've committed a foul behind the basic spot (the 20 yard line for a touchback, or the end of the run if the ball is run out of the EZ), and any time a penalty is enforced from a spot in the "offense's" EZ, it's a safety.

Let's change this up just a bit: same play, but after B1 intercepts the ball, B2 commits a hold at the 10 yard line. B1 is tackled in the EZ. B still has a touchback, and would normally get the ball at their 20. However, the penalty at the 10 is behind the basic spot, so the hold is enforced from there. Half the distance from the spot of the foul puts the ball on B's 5 yard line, 1-st and 10 for B.

The key issue when B commits a foul in this situation where a TB would normally apply is "where is the foul"? If the foul is downfield (B's 21 yard line to A's goal line), the penalty is enforced from the basic spot of the 20. If the penalty is committed behind the B20, the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul, whether in the field of play or in the EZ.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by michrefdh

Again, I in these situations, I still see a conflict in rule 8-5 art 3-d "It is a touchback when...d. A forward pass is intercepted in B's endzone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

Lots of rules apply given that no foul occurred. For example, if A has the ball 1/10 and gains 12 yards, by rule they get a new series. But wait: A1 held during the down at the LOS: now that rule doesn't apply, and we go to the penalty enforcement rule. Everyone knows this.

What's harder to explain is why you don't see that the same principle applies to the rule you keep quoting, and why you seem to think that the rules "conflict." There's no conflict here: one case has no foul and one rule applies; another case has a foul, and a different rule applies.

[KWH]

[QUOTE=michrefdh;618254][QUOTE=KWH;618235]michrefdh-
Perhaps this will help.
In your original study group play, yes, B intercepted the ball in B's endzone, however, the ball did not become dead there, and, because it did not become dead there, 8-5-3d is NOT the applicable rule.

So then, suppose in the situation originally posted, the kid threw the ball up in the air, yes it still went forward, but still landed in the endzone or out of bounds behind the goal line, and therfore is dead in the endzone. Does that affect the ruling at all?

While I fully understand where you ae going, the offense STILL committed a foul, and therefore 8-5-3d is NOT applicable, 8-5-2c and 10-5-4 are the applicable rulings. - Safety
And another situation, B1 intercepts in the endzone, B2 commits a clip in the endzone, but then B1 either downs it in the endzone, or is tackled in the endzone, therefore the ball is dead in the endzone. Does that change anything vs the original situation?

No. The offense still committed a foul in their own end zone, 8-5-3d is not applicable, 8-5-2c and 10-5-4 are the applicable rulings. - Safety

Again, I in these situations, I still see a conflict in rule 8-5 art 3-d "It is a touchback when...d. A forward pass is intercepted in B's endzone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

I understand your point.
Perhaps 8-5-3d could have some additional wording added to the end such as: l...unless 10-5-4 is applicable

P.S. I'm just trying to understand the situation and the application of the rules, and not just endlessly debate.

I fully understand.
However, sometimes in NFHS logic one rule trumps another rule.
For an example, read rule 8-2-1a, b, and c. All of these are examples of how to score a touchdown. However, we all know that if the scoring team fouled prior to scoring they don't get to keep the points even though it does not say that anywhere in Rule 8-2-1.

I hope this makes some sense.

[ppaltice]

Originally Posted by michrefdh

But the defender wasn't on offense, they were on defense, so that wouldn't apply, but again the key even in that rule is who forced the ball into the endzone "illegal pass and with the ball having been forced into the end zone by the passing team."

Read 2-43. The offense is the team in possession of the ball. When Team B intercepts the ball, they are on offense by rule.

So, although the basic spot is the succeeding spot (20 yard line), the All-But-One principle is in affect. The spot of the penalty is in B's EZ. It is a safety.