Double Foul - Question 2

[SC Ump]

I mixed up a case play in the other "Double Foul" post and made the thread a little confusing. Even with my incorrectly typed play, the input was good and thought provoking. Thanks.

The reason for that thread and this were some "Redding" case plays that I did not follow fully. I would love to have input from you folks on two plays from Redding's Chapter 5, "Additional Examples":

7. Third and eight on Team A's 30 yard line. A7 drops back to pass, and is unable to find an open receiver. A7 grounds the ball at his 22 yard line and is then tackled by B77 who could have avoided the contact. RULING: Interional grounding and the late hit result in a doulbe foul and the down is replayed. Roughing the passer cannot be called on an illegal forward pass.

30. Third and one on Team A's 40 yard line. A11 rolls out and throws a pass. He is hit hard by B2 who could have avoided the contact, but renewed his charge after the pass was released. When A11 threw the ball he was on Team A's .... (b) 42 yard line. RULING: ... In (b), A11 lost his protection from roughing when he threw from beyond the neutral zone. B2 could be guilty of unnecessary roughness and if so, the fouls would offset.

[The bold in both are mine.]

In NFHS, wouldn't both fouls in both case plays be enforced separately. I would think they are not offsetting fouls. In number 7, I see a live ball foul and a separate dead ball foul. In number 30, situation (b), I see a personal foul of "unnecessary roughness" away from the play that would also be enforced like a dead ball foul.

Am I missing something?

[ajmc]

Sometimes our use of common terms creates confusion. In both plays you describe, the illegal pass fouls are both live ball fouls, as are both personal fouls which are violations of NF: 9-4-g.

The commonly used but unofficial term "Late hit" usually references an illegal contact AFTER the ball has become dead. Until the passes, even though illegal, are either incomplete (NF: 7-5-5)or the play is blown dead, the ball is alive and the personal contact fouls would be live ball fouls.

Roughing the Passer is not possible because NF: 2-32-11 defines a "passer", as, "a player who throws a legal forward pass.....

[ppaltice]

In NF you would need to determine the state of the ball before you can properly enforce the penalties. It is possible in the first case that the QB downed the ball at his feet (ending the down) prior to the illegal contact by the B player. In that case you would have a live ball IFP and a dead ball PC. If the ball was still in the air when you had the illegal PC, then you would have a double foul that will offset.

It has been a while since I called NCAA, but I think that in NCAA the illegal personal contact would be deemed a continuation so the live/dead ball distinction would not be a factor. For NF the state of the ball is important. I believe that the unknown state of the ball is why the above two poster have different rulings.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

In NF you would need to determine the state of the ball before you can properly enforce the penalties. It is possible in the first case that the QB downed the ball at his feet (ending the down) prior to the illegal contact by the B player. In that case you would have a live ball IFP and a dead ball PC. If the ball was still in the air when you had the illegal PC, then you would have a double foul that will offset.

See, AJMC, there's another case where in a close call ruling the ball to have been dead before the personal foul results in its penalty being enforced.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

See, AJMC, there's another case where in a close call ruling the ball to have been dead before the personal foul results in its penalty being enforced.

Our job is all about what we do and how we handle close plays, Robert. Anyone can call a blatant encroachment of holding when a player is grabbed, out in the open, and thrown to the ground by a blocker.

The rule is clearly back and white. If the illegal pass hits the ground, the play is dead the instant it hits the ground. If the foul is judged to be before the ball hit the ground, you could have either a double or multiple foul (depending on who's fouling). If the foul is judged to be after the ball hit the ground, you're talking live ball and dead ball fouls.

That's why we make those, "big bucks".