Can an official besides the WH eject players/coaches if he sees fit?

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by With_Two_Flakes

I'm not sure I understand this example you gave - "little did he know?" You went up to the white hat to report what you had right?
I have a strict rule on my crew. You throw a flag, you talk to the White Hat. The only exception is that if there are two flags, the guys are allowed to talk to each other first to make sure that have the same foul, then one of them comes to me to report it. So on my crew your situation could not have happened. If you have a flag, you come talk to me and tell me what you have got.

In saying "Little did he know" I ment he didn't even ask what my call was due to the fact he had another official come up and say he saw a legal hit. Correct me if im wrong but I do not feel that it was his place to say that my call was inaccurate. I would have preferred he come up to me and simply ask me what I saw. Besides, The play was on my side of the field and he was all the way accross the field. In the officials manual it says that since the play was on my side of the field he should have been looking for blocks in the back by players closest to him. Again correct me if im wrong.

I'm more concerned about getting the call right than whether I look good. We are a crew out there - not just 4, 5, 6 or 7 individuals.

My main concern is getting the call right as well which is why I completely agree with discussing the call with other officials on the field but I also agree that it should ultimately be up to the calling official as to whether the call stands or not. After all he is the one that saw the play and obviously saw something wrong with it. No doubt, communication is key.

Futhur more I also agree with reporting the foul to the White Hat. He's the one that has to give the signal and deal the with the coaches. However, I do not feel he has the authority to waive off a call that you feel solid on because he didn't see it to. The thing to remember is there are 3,4,5,6 other individuals out there to insure that nothing is missed. For example, The referee might not see something that the LJ can and did see.

[Brandon Kincer]

White hats and Official coordinators are encouraged to reply since there are mixed feelings on this

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

In saying "Little did he know" I ment he didn't even ask what my call was due to the fact he had another official come up and say he saw a legal hit. Correct me if im wrong but I do not feel that it was his place to say that my call was inaccurate. I would have preferred he come up to me and simply ask me what I saw. Besides, The play was on my side of the field and he was all the way accross the field. In the officials manual it says that since the play was on my side of the field he should have been looking for blocks in the back by players closest to him. Again correct me if im wrong.



My main concern is getting the call right as well which is why I completely agree with discussing the call with other officials on the field but I also agree that it should ultimately be up to the calling official as to whether the call stands or not. After all he is the one that saw the play and obviously saw something wrong with it. No doubt, communication is key.

Futhur more I also agree with reporting the foul to the White Hat. He's the one that has to give the signal and deal the with the coaches. However, I do not feel he has the authority to waive off a call that you feel solid on because he didn't see it to. The thing to remember is there are 3,4,5,6 other individuals out there to insure that nothing is missed. For example, The referee might not see something that the LJ can and did see.

Instead of standing around feeling sorry for yourself you should have reported the flag to the R. If someone has a comment or issue about your flag they should talk to you first, and this isn't a practice that should be frowned upon.

Example - You may be watching the ball carrier as he stumbles on the grass and falls to the ground. An instant later a defender hits him while he's still down. You throw a flag for a late hit. What you didn't see was a teammate of the runner block the defender into the downed runner. An official with a wider view of the action should be expected to bring this information to the conversation.

Concerning the R overruling other officials' calls - The R can't and shouldn't be seeing everything. Each official has specific areas of responsibility on the field. As an R you have to trust the judgment of the others on the crew.

[jaybird]

"Last year I was the line judge for a junior rec league football game. After the snap the runner was tackled about 10-15 yards beyond the LOS. I threw a flag and instantly another official came up to the white hat before I got to him to discuss what i was calling and was saying "That was a legal hit, There was no block in the back" The white hat waived it off but little did he know I was not calling a block in the back. I was calling illegal helmet contact due to the player lowering his head and making contact with the runner. (I guess its also known as spearing)"


What I'm curious to know is what was their reaction when you jogged over and reported, "I've got spearing for illegal helmet contact by #__ at my flag, enforced 15 yards from the end of the run, here is the signal, 1st down for team A, clock on the ready."

I would really liked to have seen their faces when you reported that. You did report that didn't you?

[With_Two_Flakes]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

In saying "Little did he know" I ment he didn't even ask what my call was due to the fact he had another official come up and say he saw a legal hit. Correct me if im wrong but I do not feel that it was his place to say that my call was inaccurate. I would have preferred he come up to me and simply ask me what I saw. Besides, The play was on my side of the field and he was all the way accross the field. In the officials manual it says that since the play was on my side of the field he should have been looking for blocks in the back by players closest to him. Again correct me if im wrong.

I agree with you it wasn't that other guys place to say your call was inaccurate. He should have come to you first (like in my examples) and talked to you.
I rarely work NFHS mechanics, but you are indeed correct that on such a play he had cleanup responsibilities and should have 90% of his focus on players behind the Referee and Umpire and 10% on mirroring a progress spot once the play is dead.

If I have a flag, then I'll toot my whistle to let the White Hat know I've got a flag and I'll go to him to talk about it. If I also have the progress spot, then he comes to me. If he does not (like in your example) then I'll drop a beanbag on the progress spot and go get in his face and tell him what I've got. A flag buys you into a conversation with the White Hat.

My main concern is getting the call right as well which is why I completely agree with discussing the call with other officials on the field but I also agree that it should ultimately be up to the calling official as to whether the call stands or not. After all he is the one that saw the play and obviously saw something wrong with it. No doubt, communication is key.

Futhur more I also agree with reporting the foul to the White Hat. He's the one that has to give the signal and deal the with the coaches. However, I do not feel he has the authority to waive off a call that you feel solid on because he didn't see it to. The thing to remember is there are 3,4,5,6 other individuals out there to insure that nothing is missed. For example, The referee might not see something that the LJ can and did see.

I agree that at the end of the day it is down to the calling official, but he should first listen to input from a colleague. That colleague won't give such input lightly - in my 24 years of officiating, I bet I've had an average of one, maybe two such instances per year.

The point I was trying to make is that, in my experience, not enough emphasis is put on crew teamwork and communication when officials are initially trained and they can therefore tend to act like a group of individuals. For much of the time they will do fine, but there will likely be one or two calls a game when they need to act as a crew. It doesn't have to be penalty related either. It may be an poorly thrown pass that a receiver has to dive back to catch. Did he get his fingers under the ball? The kids body can easily block out your view of it. An official who thinks "individual" will feel compelled to make an instant call and a signal and will guess. An official who thinks "crew" will take the time to make eye contact with the opposite wing or the Umpire and get help. It takes a half second in real time but feels like a month inside your head.

[Brandon Kincer]

First off I want to thank everyone who has replied to this thread. I think its obviously a heated topic. With that being said........

What I'm curious to know is what was their reaction when you jogged over and reported, "I've got spearing for illegal helmet contact by #__ at my flag, enforced 15 yards from the end of the run, here is the signal, 1st down for team A, clock on the ready."

I would really liked to have seen their faces when you reported that. You did report that didn't you?

Yes. I did report that and the reaction by the referee was simply that there was a little over a minute left to go in the game and "It wasn't a big deal". As for the other official he knew that he was instantly in the wrong. Im not one to down someone but he never has been a gentleman I liked working with. I didn't mention this before but neither of these officials were certified. The white hat was certified in VHSL basketball. Not football.

Instead of standing around feeling sorry for yourself you should have reported the flag to the R. If someone has a comment or issue about your flag they should talk to you first, and this isn't a practice that should be frowned upon.

Example - You may be watching the ball carrier as he stumbles on the grass and falls to the ground. An instant later a defender hits him while he's still down. You throw a flag for a late hit. What you didn't see was a teammate of the runner block the defender into the downed runner. An official with a wider view of the action should be expected to bring this information to the conversation.

Concerning the R overruling other officials' calls - The R can't and shouldn't be seeing everything. Each official has specific areas of responsibility on the field. As an R you have to trust the judgment of the others on the crew.

I didn't just "stand around and feel sorry for myself". However I was questioning if what the white hat did was ethical. As I said, I will be recieving my first patch this year as a certified high school league official and im bringing things that I expierenced in rec to you guys so you can help answer some questions I have.

[ajmc]

Brandon, forgive me if I'm reading more into your delivery than you intend, but you seem to be more interested in condemnation of two other officials, rather than answering your question. From your original posting on, it seems you are well aware of the correct answer and simply want to vent.

As is true with everything, there are some Referees who are better at their job than others, some officials who exceed their authority and a lot of us who simply make mistakes. The more you pick at this scab, the more it seems there might be another side to this story relating to how you behaved, which hasn't been discussed.

It's not the role of any official to overrule or change any other official's call, however it's the responsibility of every official to try and help avoid a teammate from making a correctable mistake.

Not absolutely always, but usually, the Referee is an experienced official and is responsible for the overall management of the game. He's not your adversary, or your boss rather someone, likely with more experience, who is simply trying to avoid unnecessary problems, although Referees can make mistakes too.

If he, with or without agreement from another official, simply blew off your call, that was handled poorly and should not have happened. As many have pointed out, questioning another officials call can be either absolutely correct or horribly wrong, depending on how, where and when it's done.

There are things you control, and things you don't. Steps you can take include; working on your reporting fouls to the Referee, insuring you are crystal clear about what your foul call is, when it happened and who was involved. That report should be made directly, and as privately as possible, to the Referee. If he has a question, don't be offended, just answer it. If another official disagrees with your assessment of a particular action, resolve the issue with that official BEFORE involving the Referee, again directly and as privately as possible. (Keep in mind, someone who actually saw something trumps someone who thought they saw something else).

If the decision is that you were wrong, it's not an attack, not a big deal unless someone died. It's a mistake, we all make them EVERY game and we should try and learn from it and avoid repeating it. We simply correct what went wrong, even better if the correction is made before something was done wrong, and "play on".

As suggested above, we are the 3rd team on the field, and the only thing you can be assured of is our entire team will absolutely be the first target for blame, should ANYTHING go wrong, or not exactly how others might expect things to go. Over time we all have to learn when to accept criticism, how and when to ignore it and how to put a stop to it, when necessary. The only people you can really count on for support, on that field or in that stadium, are the other guys wearing stripes, so we have to work together.

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

Yes. I did report that and the reaction by the referee was simply that there was a little over a minute left to go in the game and "It wasn't a big deal".

We've all had somewhat similar experiences along the line - a WH who decides not to enforce a late call or maybe runs the clock when he shouldn't just to get out of there early. There isn't much you can do when the ring master is off on his own agenda. You called the foul and properly reported it. If, like in this case, he decides not to enforce it, it's his decision/problem. You did your job, but he didn't do his. You can't get in a wrestling match over the ball and mark if off yourself, and you can't get into a shouting match in the middle of the field. I'd tell him I disagree, go back to my sideline and vow never to work with him again. If a coach asks for an explaination, direct him to the WH.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

A WH can't overrule another official. Now we all (no matter what position we're working) will talk to another crew member if we think he's wrong, and we should never let the crew make a mistake.

A WH should always respect your flag. If he doesn't, you might as well stay home. The only way he should overrule you is if you're wrong (you called it illegal motion and it was clearly and illegal shift, or you penalized the player for a PF for cussing instead of USC, etc. The penalty still stands, he just gets to correct the call.)

I did overturn an ejection a few seasons ago. We were in the middle of a scrum and my partner and I saw the same activity and he said we needed to eject a player. I disagreed. Again, a case of two officials that disagree on the same play. And on that one, I won (at the time, I thought the game was better served with no ejection and I didn't think the offense really warranted a flagrant USC foul). When the WH has identical coverage with another official and disagrees with the other official, the WH is going to prevail -- right or wrong. It's happened once for me in many years this way. And I will also say I have considerably more experience in most cases compared with the members on my crew. I am not asking questions or guiding people's decisions in order to live my own power trip, it's just me doing my job. If the official can't explain a call or decision to me, how will he go back to his sideline and talk with a coach?

Where I live, I recruit people to my crew and I also deal with establishing and maintaining our schedule with commissioners and athletic directors. Let me say this: I may have no specific authority during a game to stop someone from ejecting a player or coach or calling any penalty, but I also have no requirement to keep an official who makes poor choices in this area on my crew, either. I've fired 2 crew members in the past 5 years (neither, actually, for on-field performance, not directly), so depending on how your area works, getting in a pissing match with the referee may not be a wise idea if you want to work on that crew or any crew.

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Brandon, forgive me if I'm reading more into your delivery than you intend, but you seem to be more interested in condemnation of two other officials, rather than answering your question. From your original posting on, it seems you are well aware of the correct answer and simply want to vent.

As is true with everything, there are some Referees who are better at their job than others, some officials who exceed their authority and a lot of us who simply make mistakes. The more you pick at this scab, the more it seems there might be another side to this story relating to how you behaved, which hasn't been discussed.

It's not the role of any official to overrule or change any other official's call, however it's the responsibility of every official to try and help avoid a teammate from making a correctable mistake.

Not absolutely always, but usually, the Referee is an experienced official and is responsible for the overall management of the game. He's not your adversary, or your boss rather someone, likely with more experience, who is simply trying to avoid unnecessary problems, although Referees can make mistakes too.

If he, with or without agreement from another official, simply blew off your call, that was handled poorly and should not have happened. As many have pointed out, questioning another officials call can be either absolutely correct or horribly wrong, depending on how, where and when it's done.

There are things you control, and things you don't. Steps you can take include; working on your reporting fouls to the Referee, insuring you are crystal clear about what your foul call is, when it happened and who was involved. That report should be made directly, and as privately as possible, to the Referee. If he has a question, don't be offended, just answer it. If another official disagrees with your assessment of a particular action, resolve the issue with that official BEFORE involving the Referee, again directly and as privately as possible. (Keep in mind, someone who actually saw something trumps someone who thought they saw something else).

If the decision is that you were wrong, it's not an attack, not a big deal unless someone died. It's a mistake, we all make them EVERY game and we should try and learn from it and avoid repeating it. We simply correct what went wrong, even better if the correction is made before something was done wrong, and "play on".

As suggested above, we are the 3rd team on the field, and the only thing you can be assured of is our entire team will absolutely be the first target for blame, should ANYTHING go wrong, or not exactly how others might expect things to go. Over time we all have to learn when to accept criticism, how and when to ignore it and how to put a stop to it, when necessary. The only people you can really count on for support, on that field or in that stadium, are the other guys wearing stripes, so we have to work together.

ajmc,
Thanks for repling to my post. I see your point in getting off topic a bit on this thread however like I said, I am new at this and I have been offered a job with the VHSL (My High School Level State Association). I have one year under my belt and I do appreciate the advice you are giving me because I do feel this will benefit me in the long run. Please don't take me wrong though. I am not trying to "pick at a scab". Im just trying to find out the best thing to do in a situation such as this. Again Thank you for your advice.

We've all had somewhat similar experiences along the line - a WH who decides not to enforce a late call or maybe runs the clock when he shouldn't just to get out of there early. There isn't much you can do when the ring master is off on his own agenda. You called the foul and properly reported it. If, like in this case, he decides not to enforce it, it's his decision/problem. You did your job, but he didn't do his. You can't get in a wrestling match over the ball and mark if off yourself, and you can't get into a shouting match in the middle of the field. I'd tell him I disagree, go back to my sideline and vow never to work with him again. If a coach asks for an explaination, direct him to the WH.

Thanks for the advice. I have never had a REAL problem with this but should it arise I think this is exactly what ill do.

I did overturn an ejection a few seasons ago. We were in the middle of a scrum and my partner and I saw the same activity and he said we needed to eject a player. I disagreed. Again, a case of two officials that disagree on the same play. And on that one, I won. When the WH has identical coverage with another official and disagrees with the other official, the WH is going to prevail -- right or wrong. It's happened once in many years this way.

Where I live, I recruit people to my crew and I also deal with establishing and maintaining our schedule with commissioners and athletic directors. Let me say this: I may have no specific authority during a game to stop someone from ejecting a player or coach or calling any penalty, but I also have no requirement to keep an official who makes poor choices in this area on my crew, either. I've fired 2 crew members in the past 5 years, so depending on how your area works, getting in a pissing match with the referee may not be a wise idea if you want to work on that crew.

Very true. This why I posted this thread and am asking questions. I do not want to go about this the wrong way. In my state, the officials are scheduled and assigned to their positions for each individual game. Basically im just trying to figure out what exactly a white hat means. My real question is why don't all of the officials wear black hats? The WH is not necessarly the guy who can fire us. He is more or less just a more expeirenced guy assigned to that position for that game. When you say that you fire someone for making poor choices, do you mean enforcing a penalty that they feel solid on or just flat out not listening to what the other crew members have to say and basically calling the game themselves?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

Very true. This why I posted this thread and am asking questions. I do not want to go about this the wrong way. In my state, the officials are scheduled and assigned to their positions for each individual game. Basically im just trying to figure out what exactly a white hat means. My real question is why don't all of the officials wear black hats? The WH is not necessarly the guy who can fire us. He is more or less just a more expeirenced guy assigned to that position for that game. When you say that you fire someone for making poor choices, do you mean enforcing a penalty that they feel solid on or just flat out not listening to what the other crew members have to say and basically calling the game themselves?

It depends on the area. In my area, I work with the same four guys every Friday night. We work the same position every week. On this crew I am the WH and the crew chief.

I'll give you an example of what I mean by poor choices. I expect the wings to handle the sidelines and to enforce decorum strictly and consistently. One of the wings hasn't done a great job of this and he's been on the wing on my crew for 2 years now. In effect, it gives the impression that the visiting team is being homered cause the L has no problem giving sideline warnings and enforcing the rules and this is always the visiting team. If the wing doesn't do better this year in this area, I'll get a new wing for the following season and tell him his services are no longer needed on my crew. And I plan on laying this out at the preseason crew meeting we'll have in July or so.

There are some absolutes for me. Clean uniform. Showing up on time. Not getting out of games excessively or with too little notice (as I have to find a sub). The rest? It's a feeling thing. Notice I haven't said anything about calls being made. If I'm doing my job, it's rare that I see the activity that someone else has flagged. We get film, but that doesn't always help.

Again, it's different in many areas. When I lived in TN, we worked with different people every week and we pretty much worked a position and were assigned games through the association.

[Brandon Kincer]

We have this guy that works with me in rec and he comes to his game looking like a thug. Hat crooked, shirt untucked, etc. You'd have a field day with this guy lol. That is also a pet peeve of mine. If your going to play the role you need to look the role.

[Forksref]

I will say to the coach, "Number 42 has disqualified himself." That puts the onus on the player and coach. Usually, the coach will direct his questions/frustrations toward the player, not the officials.

[Brandon Kincer]

A poll has been added to this thread please vote accordingly

Originally Posted by HLin NC

Similar experience happened to me about 8 years ago. I had about 7 years under my belt then but had moved to a new region. My first scrimmage with my new group, a LB grabs the TE coming off the line and holds him. I flag it and the WH starts yelling "that's not pass interference" at me. After the play was over, I calmly told him "I know, I've got Holding on the defense".

Sometimes if you are a young and/or inexperienced official, veterans will try to overcompensate for you. Its not usually done intentionally.

Had a similar experience last fall. A receiver was in motion in the backfield, and just a moment before the snap, turned up field, and was in the neutral zone just as the ball was snapped. (Pretty fast, but I caught it because it was on my end of the line) I blew the play dead, flagged it, and reported it as a false start. My white hat looked at me and said you don't have a false start, you have an illegal motion, and you let the play go. I said he was in the neutral zone when the ball was snapped. White hat went to the other wing, who could only confirm the forward motion, but not the neutral zone infraction. White hat looked at me again and said, that's illegal motion.

At halftime, we discussed this, and white hat was going off about me blowing the play dead. I was the only one in the room who insisted it had to be blown dead because the receiver was in the neutral zone at the snap, and his motion caused him to be there. So being the "least experienced" official, I "kowtowed" to the crew and said it would never happen again, but I expected them to do the explaining when a coach complains we got the call wrong. They said a coach won't complain. Lo and behold, we had it happen in the second half, and coach went ballastic because our enforcement changed. I explained to him that it wasn't a false start, but illegal motion and I made the mistake in the first half (but I felt like s**t saying that because I know I was right). He had a conference with the white hat, who said the same thing. Coach then asked me (after white hat went back to his position) what the crew threatened me with during halftime. I calmly said "nothing".

In retrospect, if I would have said encroachment instead of false start, I wonder if this whole scenario would have played out or not. But the point of the matter is, you see the play, you flag it, and then report it to the white hat. If there's any question, you will have a discussion, but ultimately the white hat shouldn't overrule you because YOU saw the part of the play you flagged.