Can an official besides the WH eject players/coaches if he sees fit?

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

The referee is the lead official of the crew. If you go to the NFHS Officials Manual the duties of each official as to the pregame responsibilities are described. The white hat designates to everyone the person in charge as opposed to the black hat. In most cases a white hat will not overrule another official. On the field responsibilities are not as strictly defined.

I can only speak for myself as a referee but every official on my crew has the same standing as myself when it comes to what you see and call on the field. Of course, that requires you as an official learn the proper mechanics and rule application. There will be times when you may see something different than another official and if you feel strongly about your call discuss with the other official regardless of the hat being worn or the number of years that official has been working. However, at no time openly and/or loudly dispute another official on the field.

in the manual it also states the procedure for calling a disqualifying foul is as follows (Not word for word but basically):

The calling official shall notify the player/coach that he is ejected
The official shall make it clear that it is for the rest of the game
and then report to the White Hat and other officials the number and foul

Originally Posted by Jim D.

A WH can't overrule another official. Now we all (no matter what position we're working) will talk to another crew member if we think he's wrong, and we should never let the crew make a mistake.

A WH should always respect your flag. If he doesn't, you might as well stay home. The only way he should overrule you is if you're wrong (you called it illegal motion and it was clearly and illegal shift, or you penalized the player for a PF for cussing instead of USC, etc. The penalty still stands, he just gets to correct the call.)

Im not as expeirenced as most but I do agree with what Jim D said. If an official says he saw what he saw, throws the flag, and makes the call then he has done his job. I think having someone come behind you and overrule a call that you made (whether it be an ejection or a simple 5 yard penalty) makes the crew look some what like they do not know what they are doing.

For Example: Last year I was the line judge for a junior rec league football game. After the snap the runner was tackled about 10-15 yards beyond the LOS. I threw a flag and instantly another official came up to the white hat before I got to him to discuss what i was calling and was saying "That was a legal hit, There was no block in the back" The white hat waived it off but little did he know I was not calling a block in the back. I was calling illegal helmet contact due to the player lowering his head and making contact with the runner. (I guess its also known as spearing)

I told my coordinator about what had happened and he agreed that no official's call should ever be waived off unless he himself decides to do so after discussing with the other officials the rule in which he is enforcing.

[HLin NC]

Similar experience happened to me about 8 years ago. I had about 7 years under my belt then but had moved to a new region. My first scrimmage with my new group, a LB grabs the TE coming off the line and holds him. I flag it and the WH starts yelling "that's not pass interference" at me. After the play was over, I calmly told him "I know, I've got Holding on the defense".

Sometimes if you are a young and/or inexperienced official, veterans will try to overcompensate for you. Its not usually done intentionally.

Keep working hard, get in the rules and mechanics books. Work every game you can, order some of the supplemental guides out there. Talk plays over with your crewmates at meetings and after the games.

Show your crew that you are proactive and you will gain their trust.

Originally Posted by HLin NC

Similar experience happened to me about 8 years ago. I had about 7 years under my belt then but had moved to a new region. My first scrimmage with my new group, a LB grabs the TE coming off the line and holds him. I flag it and the WH starts yelling "that's not pass interference" at me. After the play was over, I calmly told him "I know, I've got Holding on the defense".

Sometimes if you are a young and/or inexperienced official, veterans will try to overcompensate for you. Its not usually done intentionally.

Had a similar experience last fall. A receiver was in motion in the backfield, and just a moment before the snap, turned up field, and was in the neutral zone just as the ball was snapped. (Pretty fast, but I caught it because it was on my end of the line) I blew the play dead, flagged it, and reported it as a false start. My white hat looked at me and said you don't have a false start, you have an illegal motion, and you let the play go. I said he was in the neutral zone when the ball was snapped. White hat went to the other wing, who could only confirm the forward motion, but not the neutral zone infraction. White hat looked at me again and said, that's illegal motion.

At halftime, we discussed this, and white hat was going off about me blowing the play dead. I was the only one in the room who insisted it had to be blown dead because the receiver was in the neutral zone at the snap, and his motion caused him to be there. So being the "least experienced" official, I "kowtowed" to the crew and said it would never happen again, but I expected them to do the explaining when a coach complains we got the call wrong. They said a coach won't complain. Lo and behold, we had it happen in the second half, and coach went ballastic because our enforcement changed. I explained to him that it wasn't a false start, but illegal motion and I made the mistake in the first half (but I felt like s**t saying that because I know I was right). He had a conference with the white hat, who said the same thing. Coach then asked me (after white hat went back to his position) what the crew threatened me with during halftime. I calmly said "nothing".

In retrospect, if I would have said encroachment instead of false start, I wonder if this whole scenario would have played out or not. But the point of the matter is, you see the play, you flag it, and then report it to the white hat. If there's any question, you will have a discussion, but ultimately the white hat shouldn't overrule you because YOU saw the part of the play you flagged.

[Texas Aggie]

I'm wondering if there are areas where the white hat (i.e Referee; just to be clear) and the Crew chief are or could be two different individuals. Where I work, they are the same. R's have some additional responsibilities (without additional pay, but that's another debate) and do take control. However, if one of my crew members brings me a penalty, I'm going to enforce it unless its just flat out wrong. Then I will convince him to change it -- which I have done. Heck, I've even talked myself into picking up my own flag before! No, we don't get into a habit of that, but if its necessary we'll do it.

I tell my crew (and adhere to it myself): don't be married to your calls. If my BJ comes in with a DPI and my LJ comes in and says it was probably uncatchable, I'll give them 5-10 seconds to discuss it and then we'll come to a decision but I expect both of them to decide on what's the best call for that situation, not what upholds their ego. Otherwise, I expect my guys to make the tough calls and when they bring them to me, I'll enforce them. If one guy comes to me and says, "18 threw a punch, I think he's ejected," 18 is gone. If one comes to me and says "18 had a personal foul but I'm not sure if it was flagrant," I'll try to get together to see if 1) they saw what 18 did on that play and 2) if they had warned 18 before. In the end, whoever made the call will make the decision unless he gives it up to me or the crew.

This is one reason why you need a good pregame if working with guys you don't consistently work with. That's when I give my "married to your calls" speech -- which mainly applies to things like uncatchable pass on DPI or pass thrown behind the line on ineligibles downfield, and like plays.

[With_Two_Flakes]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

Im not as expeirenced as most but I do agree with what Jim D said. If an official says he saw what he saw, throws the flag, and makes the call then he has done his job. I think having someone come behind you and overrule a call that you made (whether it be an ejection or a simple 5 yard penalty) makes the crew look some what like they do not know what they are doing.

Well you have to be careful about this subject. If I throw a flag then I have no problem with another offcial coming to me and asking what I saw. A key point is that it is done out of earshot of players/coaches. I work NCAA so passes have to be catchable for DPI. I flag a DPI and my fellow official comes to me and asks "Did you see the ball?" That makes me think about whether the pass was catchable. I'm more concerned about getting the call right than whether I look good. We are a crew out there - not just 4, 5, 6 or 7 individuals.

Equally I have no problem asking a question. Last year I worked a game as White Hat. The runner ran toward the sideline, ahead of him a block was made by a pulling guard #67, looked like a good side block. The Line Judge threw in a flag. After the play, he reported that he had a Block in the back by #67. I asked "Are you sure? I saw that block too and it looked like it was Ok and in the side." The Line Judge (who has as many years of experience as me) said "You know what? You're right, it was in the side. Wave it off."

The white hat waived it off but little did he know I was not calling a block in the back. I was calling illegal helmet contact due to the player lowering his head and making contact with the runner. (I guess its also known as spearing)

I'm not sure I understand this example you gave - "little did he know?" You went up to the white hat to report what you had right?
I have a strict rule on my crew. You throw a flag, you talk to the White Hat. The only exception is that if there are two flags, the guys are allowed to talk to each other first to make sure that have the same foul, then one of them comes to me to report it. So on my crew your situation could not have happened. If you have a flag, you come talk to me and tell me what you have got.

[JRutledge]

All the Referee does is run the administrative parts of the game. I cannot think of anything they run other than this part. When I was the Referee once that game starts, I had to be good at my part of the field or my responsibilities; I never took my job as the leader or being in charge. I took my job as apart of the crew and I was not the crew chief off the field either.

Peace

[jaybird]

"Last year I was the line judge for a junior rec league football game. After the snap the runner was tackled about 10-15 yards beyond the LOS. I threw a flag and instantly another official came up to the white hat before I got to him to discuss what i was calling and was saying "That was a legal hit, There was no block in the back" The white hat waived it off but little did he know I was not calling a block in the back. I was calling illegal helmet contact due to the player lowering his head and making contact with the runner. (I guess its also known as spearing)"


What I'm curious to know is what was their reaction when you jogged over and reported, "I've got spearing for illegal helmet contact by #__ at my flag, enforced 15 yards from the end of the run, here is the signal, 1st down for team A, clock on the ready."

I would really liked to have seen their faces when you reported that. You did report that didn't you?

[parepat]

Two things:

1. If I'm the referee, I always give another official time to back out of an ejection. I will go over the call and ask him. "Do you still want to eject him?" The decision is always his. About half the time an official will change his mind (obviously there are situations that don't have much wiggle room-ie fighting). Sometimes in the heat of the moment we pull the trigger a little quickly and it is good to take a second to reflect.

2. I think the role of the referee is being mischaracterized. On any crew I have worked with, the referee is collectively "in charge". Maybe not officially, but as a practical matter, someone should have the last word. Thus, when a dispute arises, it is almost always the referee who ultimately will decide. That has been my experience.

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by parepat

Two things:

1. If I'm the referee, I always give another official time to back out of an ejection. I will go over the call and ask him. "Do you still want to eject him?" The decision is always his. About half the time an official will change his mind (obviously there are situations that don't have much wiggle room-ie fighting). Sometimes in the heat of the moment we pull the trigger a little quickly and it is good to take a second to reflect.

2. I think the role of the referee is being mischaracterized. On any crew I have worked with, the referee is collectively "in charge". Maybe not officially, but as a practical matter, someone should have the last word. Thus, when a dispute arises, it is almost always the referee who ultimately will decide. That has been my experience.

This is what I ultimatly feel the White Hat's job is. He questions your call so that you may speak to other officials about what they saw and helps gather info you may not know. If it is determined you are wrong he is to tell you why it is wrong so that you don't make the same mistake again. However, He shouldalways leave it up to the calling official as to wether the call is upheld or waived off. Wtih that being said, He is also the dispute breaker. They guy who has the final say so should a disagreement arise.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

He shouldalways leave it up to the calling official as to wether the call is upheld or waived off. Wtih that being said, He is also the dispute breaker. They guy who has the final say so should a disagreement arise.

Brandon, I can't tell if you're trying to split a hair beyond it's splitting capacity, but if you're still having trouble with the words, read the following rules carefully;

NF: 1.1.4 "The game is administered by game officials whose title and duties are are stated in the official's manual".

NF: 1.1.6 "The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good sportsmanship, on any situation not covered in the rules. The referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.(Not the specificity of specifically identifying the "Referee" as the final decision maker)

If a referee's observation and conclusions about a situation are different than another official calling a particular situation, the rereree is within his right to tactfully and discreetly seek details supporting the call. In the vast majority of instances, information from the calling official, about his observations, will provide the detail necessary to support his reaction.

In those rare instances when that may not be the case, or when a rule is misunderstood and the referee believes has been misapllied, the referee should be able to educate the calling official of the error of his decision, which should then persuade the calling official to alter his ruling.

In the unusual circumstance where disagreement persists, the referee would likely seek input from the other game officials to try and back up either position, but the final decision, and responsibility for making it, belong to the referee.

It should be highly unusual, however, to reach the point of requiring a non consensus decision.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

He shouldalways leave it up to the calling official as to wether the call is upheld or waived off. Wtih that being said, He is also the dispute breaker. They guy who has the final say so should a disagreement arise.

Brandon, I can't tell if youre trying to split a hait beyond it's splitting capacity, but if you're still having trouble with the words, read the following rules;

NF: 1.1.4 "The game is administered by game officials whose title and duties are are stated in the official's manual".

NF: 1.1.6 "The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good sportsmanship, on any situation not covered in the rules. The referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.

If a referee's observation and conclusions about a situation are different than another official calling a particular situation, the fereree is within his right to tactfully, discreetly seek details supporting the call. In the vast majority od instances, information from the calling official about his observations will provide the detail necessary to support his reaction.

In those rare instances when that may not be the case, or when a rule is misunderstood and the referee believes has been misapllied, the referee should be able to persuade the calling official of the error of his decision, which should motivate the calling official to change his ruling.

In the unusual circumstance where disagreement persists, the referee would likely secure input from the other game officials to try and back up either position, but the final decision, and responsibility, are the referee's to make.

It should be highly unusual, however, to reach the point of requiring a non consensus decision.

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Brandon, I can't tell if youre trying to split a hait beyond it's splitting capacity, but if you're still having trouble with the words, read the following rules;

NF: 1.1.4 "The game is administered by game officials whose title and duties are are stated in the official's manual".

NF: 1.1.6 "The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good sportsmanship, on any situation not covered in the rules. The referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.

If a referee's observation and conclusions about a situation are different than another official calling a particular situation, the fereree is within his right to tactfully, discreetly seek details supporting the call. In the vast majority od instances, information from the calling official about his observations will provide the detail necessary to support his reaction.

In those rare instances when that may not be the case, or when a rule is misunderstood and the referee believes has been misapllied, the referee should be able to persuade the calling official of the error of his decision, which should motivate the calling official to change his ruling.

In the unusual circumstance where disagreement persists, the referee would likely secure input from the other game officials to try and back up either position, but the final decision, and responsibility, are the referee's to make.

It should be highly unusual, however, to reach the point of requiring a non consensus decision.

Agreed.

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by With_Two_Flakes

I'm not sure I understand this example you gave - "little did he know?" You went up to the white hat to report what you had right?
I have a strict rule on my crew. You throw a flag, you talk to the White Hat. The only exception is that if there are two flags, the guys are allowed to talk to each other first to make sure that have the same foul, then one of them comes to me to report it. So on my crew your situation could not have happened. If you have a flag, you come talk to me and tell me what you have got.

In saying "Little did he know" I ment he didn't even ask what my call was due to the fact he had another official come up and say he saw a legal hit. Correct me if im wrong but I do not feel that it was his place to say that my call was inaccurate. I would have preferred he come up to me and simply ask me what I saw. Besides, The play was on my side of the field and he was all the way accross the field. In the officials manual it says that since the play was on my side of the field he should have been looking for blocks in the back by players closest to him. Again correct me if im wrong.

I'm more concerned about getting the call right than whether I look good. We are a crew out there - not just 4, 5, 6 or 7 individuals.

My main concern is getting the call right as well which is why I completely agree with discussing the call with other officials on the field but I also agree that it should ultimately be up to the calling official as to whether the call stands or not. After all he is the one that saw the play and obviously saw something wrong with it. No doubt, communication is key.

Futhur more I also agree with reporting the foul to the White Hat. He's the one that has to give the signal and deal the with the coaches. However, I do not feel he has the authority to waive off a call that you feel solid on because he didn't see it to. The thing to remember is there are 3,4,5,6 other individuals out there to insure that nothing is missed. For example, The referee might not see something that the LJ can and did see.

[Brandon Kincer]

White hats and Official coordinators are encouraged to reply since there are mixed feelings on this

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

In saying "Little did he know" I ment he didn't even ask what my call was due to the fact he had another official come up and say he saw a legal hit. Correct me if im wrong but I do not feel that it was his place to say that my call was inaccurate. I would have preferred he come up to me and simply ask me what I saw. Besides, The play was on my side of the field and he was all the way accross the field. In the officials manual it says that since the play was on my side of the field he should have been looking for blocks in the back by players closest to him. Again correct me if im wrong.



My main concern is getting the call right as well which is why I completely agree with discussing the call with other officials on the field but I also agree that it should ultimately be up to the calling official as to whether the call stands or not. After all he is the one that saw the play and obviously saw something wrong with it. No doubt, communication is key.

Futhur more I also agree with reporting the foul to the White Hat. He's the one that has to give the signal and deal the with the coaches. However, I do not feel he has the authority to waive off a call that you feel solid on because he didn't see it to. The thing to remember is there are 3,4,5,6 other individuals out there to insure that nothing is missed. For example, The referee might not see something that the LJ can and did see.

Instead of standing around feeling sorry for yourself you should have reported the flag to the R. If someone has a comment or issue about your flag they should talk to you first, and this isn't a practice that should be frowned upon.

Example - You may be watching the ball carrier as he stumbles on the grass and falls to the ground. An instant later a defender hits him while he's still down. You throw a flag for a late hit. What you didn't see was a teammate of the runner block the defender into the downed runner. An official with a wider view of the action should be expected to bring this information to the conversation.

Concerning the R overruling other officials' calls - The R can't and shouldn't be seeing everything. Each official has specific areas of responsibility on the field. As an R you have to trust the judgment of the others on the crew.