Can an official besides the WH eject players/coaches if he sees fit?

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

He shouldalways leave it up to the calling official as to wether the call is upheld or waived off. Wtih that being said, He is also the dispute breaker. They guy who has the final say so should a disagreement arise.

Brandon, I can't tell if you're trying to split a hair beyond it's splitting capacity, but if you're still having trouble with the words, read the following rules carefully;

NF: 1.1.4 "The game is administered by game officials whose title and duties are are stated in the official's manual".

NF: 1.1.6 "The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good sportsmanship, on any situation not covered in the rules. The referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.(Not the specificity of specifically identifying the "Referee" as the final decision maker)

If a referee's observation and conclusions about a situation are different than another official calling a particular situation, the rereree is within his right to tactfully and discreetly seek details supporting the call. In the vast majority of instances, information from the calling official, about his observations, will provide the detail necessary to support his reaction.

In those rare instances when that may not be the case, or when a rule is misunderstood and the referee believes has been misapllied, the referee should be able to educate the calling official of the error of his decision, which should then persuade the calling official to alter his ruling.

In the unusual circumstance where disagreement persists, the referee would likely seek input from the other game officials to try and back up either position, but the final decision, and responsibility for making it, belong to the referee.

It should be highly unusual, however, to reach the point of requiring a non consensus decision.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

He shouldalways leave it up to the calling official as to wether the call is upheld or waived off. Wtih that being said, He is also the dispute breaker. They guy who has the final say so should a disagreement arise.

Brandon, I can't tell if youre trying to split a hait beyond it's splitting capacity, but if you're still having trouble with the words, read the following rules;

NF: 1.1.4 "The game is administered by game officials whose title and duties are are stated in the official's manual".

NF: 1.1.6 "The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good sportsmanship, on any situation not covered in the rules. The referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.

If a referee's observation and conclusions about a situation are different than another official calling a particular situation, the fereree is within his right to tactfully, discreetly seek details supporting the call. In the vast majority od instances, information from the calling official about his observations will provide the detail necessary to support his reaction.

In those rare instances when that may not be the case, or when a rule is misunderstood and the referee believes has been misapllied, the referee should be able to persuade the calling official of the error of his decision, which should motivate the calling official to change his ruling.

In the unusual circumstance where disagreement persists, the referee would likely secure input from the other game officials to try and back up either position, but the final decision, and responsibility, are the referee's to make.

It should be highly unusual, however, to reach the point of requiring a non consensus decision.

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by With_Two_Flakes

I'm not sure I understand this example you gave - "little did he know?" You went up to the white hat to report what you had right?
I have a strict rule on my crew. You throw a flag, you talk to the White Hat. The only exception is that if there are two flags, the guys are allowed to talk to each other first to make sure that have the same foul, then one of them comes to me to report it. So on my crew your situation could not have happened. If you have a flag, you come talk to me and tell me what you have got.

In saying "Little did he know" I ment he didn't even ask what my call was due to the fact he had another official come up and say he saw a legal hit. Correct me if im wrong but I do not feel that it was his place to say that my call was inaccurate. I would have preferred he come up to me and simply ask me what I saw. Besides, The play was on my side of the field and he was all the way accross the field. In the officials manual it says that since the play was on my side of the field he should have been looking for blocks in the back by players closest to him. Again correct me if im wrong.

I'm more concerned about getting the call right than whether I look good. We are a crew out there - not just 4, 5, 6 or 7 individuals.

My main concern is getting the call right as well which is why I completely agree with discussing the call with other officials on the field but I also agree that it should ultimately be up to the calling official as to whether the call stands or not. After all he is the one that saw the play and obviously saw something wrong with it. No doubt, communication is key.

Futhur more I also agree with reporting the foul to the White Hat. He's the one that has to give the signal and deal the with the coaches. However, I do not feel he has the authority to waive off a call that you feel solid on because he didn't see it to. The thing to remember is there are 3,4,5,6 other individuals out there to insure that nothing is missed. For example, The referee might not see something that the LJ can and did see.

[Brandon Kincer]

White hats and Official coordinators are encouraged to reply since there are mixed feelings on this

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

In saying "Little did he know" I ment he didn't even ask what my call was due to the fact he had another official come up and say he saw a legal hit. Correct me if im wrong but I do not feel that it was his place to say that my call was inaccurate. I would have preferred he come up to me and simply ask me what I saw. Besides, The play was on my side of the field and he was all the way accross the field. In the officials manual it says that since the play was on my side of the field he should have been looking for blocks in the back by players closest to him. Again correct me if im wrong.



My main concern is getting the call right as well which is why I completely agree with discussing the call with other officials on the field but I also agree that it should ultimately be up to the calling official as to whether the call stands or not. After all he is the one that saw the play and obviously saw something wrong with it. No doubt, communication is key.

Futhur more I also agree with reporting the foul to the White Hat. He's the one that has to give the signal and deal the with the coaches. However, I do not feel he has the authority to waive off a call that you feel solid on because he didn't see it to. The thing to remember is there are 3,4,5,6 other individuals out there to insure that nothing is missed. For example, The referee might not see something that the LJ can and did see.

Instead of standing around feeling sorry for yourself you should have reported the flag to the R. If someone has a comment or issue about your flag they should talk to you first, and this isn't a practice that should be frowned upon.

Example - You may be watching the ball carrier as he stumbles on the grass and falls to the ground. An instant later a defender hits him while he's still down. You throw a flag for a late hit. What you didn't see was a teammate of the runner block the defender into the downed runner. An official with a wider view of the action should be expected to bring this information to the conversation.

Concerning the R overruling other officials' calls - The R can't and shouldn't be seeing everything. Each official has specific areas of responsibility on the field. As an R you have to trust the judgment of the others on the crew.

[With_Two_Flakes]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

In saying "Little did he know" I ment he didn't even ask what my call was due to the fact he had another official come up and say he saw a legal hit. Correct me if im wrong but I do not feel that it was his place to say that my call was inaccurate. I would have preferred he come up to me and simply ask me what I saw. Besides, The play was on my side of the field and he was all the way accross the field. In the officials manual it says that since the play was on my side of the field he should have been looking for blocks in the back by players closest to him. Again correct me if im wrong.

I agree with you it wasn't that other guys place to say your call was inaccurate. He should have come to you first (like in my examples) and talked to you.
I rarely work NFHS mechanics, but you are indeed correct that on such a play he had cleanup responsibilities and should have 90% of his focus on players behind the Referee and Umpire and 10% on mirroring a progress spot once the play is dead.

If I have a flag, then I'll toot my whistle to let the White Hat know I've got a flag and I'll go to him to talk about it. If I also have the progress spot, then he comes to me. If he does not (like in your example) then I'll drop a beanbag on the progress spot and go get in his face and tell him what I've got. A flag buys you into a conversation with the White Hat.

My main concern is getting the call right as well which is why I completely agree with discussing the call with other officials on the field but I also agree that it should ultimately be up to the calling official as to whether the call stands or not. After all he is the one that saw the play and obviously saw something wrong with it. No doubt, communication is key.

Futhur more I also agree with reporting the foul to the White Hat. He's the one that has to give the signal and deal the with the coaches. However, I do not feel he has the authority to waive off a call that you feel solid on because he didn't see it to. The thing to remember is there are 3,4,5,6 other individuals out there to insure that nothing is missed. For example, The referee might not see something that the LJ can and did see.

I agree that at the end of the day it is down to the calling official, but he should first listen to input from a colleague. That colleague won't give such input lightly - in my 24 years of officiating, I bet I've had an average of one, maybe two such instances per year.

The point I was trying to make is that, in my experience, not enough emphasis is put on crew teamwork and communication when officials are initially trained and they can therefore tend to act like a group of individuals. For much of the time they will do fine, but there will likely be one or two calls a game when they need to act as a crew. It doesn't have to be penalty related either. It may be an poorly thrown pass that a receiver has to dive back to catch. Did he get his fingers under the ball? The kids body can easily block out your view of it. An official who thinks "individual" will feel compelled to make an instant call and a signal and will guess. An official who thinks "crew" will take the time to make eye contact with the opposite wing or the Umpire and get help. It takes a half second in real time but feels like a month inside your head.

[Brandon Kincer]

First off I want to thank everyone who has replied to this thread. I think its obviously a heated topic. With that being said........

What I'm curious to know is what was their reaction when you jogged over and reported, "I've got spearing for illegal helmet contact by #__ at my flag, enforced 15 yards from the end of the run, here is the signal, 1st down for team A, clock on the ready."

I would really liked to have seen their faces when you reported that. You did report that didn't you?

Yes. I did report that and the reaction by the referee was simply that there was a little over a minute left to go in the game and "It wasn't a big deal". As for the other official he knew that he was instantly in the wrong. Im not one to down someone but he never has been a gentleman I liked working with. I didn't mention this before but neither of these officials were certified. The white hat was certified in VHSL basketball. Not football.

Instead of standing around feeling sorry for yourself you should have reported the flag to the R. If someone has a comment or issue about your flag they should talk to you first, and this isn't a practice that should be frowned upon.

Example - You may be watching the ball carrier as he stumbles on the grass and falls to the ground. An instant later a defender hits him while he's still down. You throw a flag for a late hit. What you didn't see was a teammate of the runner block the defender into the downed runner. An official with a wider view of the action should be expected to bring this information to the conversation.

Concerning the R overruling other officials' calls - The R can't and shouldn't be seeing everything. Each official has specific areas of responsibility on the field. As an R you have to trust the judgment of the others on the crew.

I didn't just "stand around and feel sorry for myself". However I was questioning if what the white hat did was ethical. As I said, I will be recieving my first patch this year as a certified high school league official and im bringing things that I expierenced in rec to you guys so you can help answer some questions I have.

[ajmc]

Brandon, forgive me if I'm reading more into your delivery than you intend, but you seem to be more interested in condemnation of two other officials, rather than answering your question. From your original posting on, it seems you are well aware of the correct answer and simply want to vent.

As is true with everything, there are some Referees who are better at their job than others, some officials who exceed their authority and a lot of us who simply make mistakes. The more you pick at this scab, the more it seems there might be another side to this story relating to how you behaved, which hasn't been discussed.

It's not the role of any official to overrule or change any other official's call, however it's the responsibility of every official to try and help avoid a teammate from making a correctable mistake.

Not absolutely always, but usually, the Referee is an experienced official and is responsible for the overall management of the game. He's not your adversary, or your boss rather someone, likely with more experience, who is simply trying to avoid unnecessary problems, although Referees can make mistakes too.

If he, with or without agreement from another official, simply blew off your call, that was handled poorly and should not have happened. As many have pointed out, questioning another officials call can be either absolutely correct or horribly wrong, depending on how, where and when it's done.

There are things you control, and things you don't. Steps you can take include; working on your reporting fouls to the Referee, insuring you are crystal clear about what your foul call is, when it happened and who was involved. That report should be made directly, and as privately as possible, to the Referee. If he has a question, don't be offended, just answer it. If another official disagrees with your assessment of a particular action, resolve the issue with that official BEFORE involving the Referee, again directly and as privately as possible. (Keep in mind, someone who actually saw something trumps someone who thought they saw something else).

If the decision is that you were wrong, it's not an attack, not a big deal unless someone died. It's a mistake, we all make them EVERY game and we should try and learn from it and avoid repeating it. We simply correct what went wrong, even better if the correction is made before something was done wrong, and "play on".

As suggested above, we are the 3rd team on the field, and the only thing you can be assured of is our entire team will absolutely be the first target for blame, should ANYTHING go wrong, or not exactly how others might expect things to go. Over time we all have to learn when to accept criticism, how and when to ignore it and how to put a stop to it, when necessary. The only people you can really count on for support, on that field or in that stadium, are the other guys wearing stripes, so we have to work together.

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

Yes. I did report that and the reaction by the referee was simply that there was a little over a minute left to go in the game and "It wasn't a big deal".

We've all had somewhat similar experiences along the line - a WH who decides not to enforce a late call or maybe runs the clock when he shouldn't just to get out of there early. There isn't much you can do when the ring master is off on his own agenda. You called the foul and properly reported it. If, like in this case, he decides not to enforce it, it's his decision/problem. You did your job, but he didn't do his. You can't get in a wrestling match over the ball and mark if off yourself, and you can't get into a shouting match in the middle of the field. I'd tell him I disagree, go back to my sideline and vow never to work with him again. If a coach asks for an explaination, direct him to the WH.

[VALJ]

Originally Posted by With_Two_Flakes

Equally I have no problem asking a question. Last year I worked a game as White Hat. The runner ran toward the sideline, ahead of him a block was made by a pulling guard #67, looked like a good side block. The Line Judge threw in a flag. After the play, he reported that he had a Block in the back by #67. I asked "Are you sure? I saw that block too and it looked like it was Ok and in the side." The Line Judge (who has as many years of experience as me) said "You know what? You're right, it was in the side. Wave it off."

My second or third year, I had a similar situation in a JV game, and it didn't faze me that the R asked a bit. I had a sweep coming to my side, and the pulling guard blasted the linebacker who was in position to make the play. Unfortunately for the offense, he got him in the back right between the numbers. That block opened the hole that the RB went through for a TD. After the play, I reported the BIB to the R. Knowing that I was still relatively new, he aked me "did the block you're calling affect the play?" I told him, "Matt, that block opened the hole, and is the why he was able to score." He signaled it, marked it off, and on we went. We talked about it at half time, and he told me that he wasn't questioning what I saw at all - he just wanted to be sure that what I was calling was "there", and not an off-ball foul that didn't affect the play. I've worked with him a few times since then, and he hasn't asked any more questions like that.

Especially as a newer official, I appreciated that he was looking to make me a better official. I'm hoping to transition to WH over the next few seasons, at least for JV games, and - for the first and second year guys - will probably try to use the flags as a "teaching moment" for the rookies as well.

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by VALJ

My second or third year, I had a similar situation in a JV game, and it didn't faze me that the R asked a bit. I had a sweep coming to my side, and the pulling guard blasted the linebacker who was in position to make the play. Unfortunately for the offense, he got him in the back right between the numbers. That block opened the hole that the RB went through for a TD. After the play, I reported the BIB to the R. Knowing that I was still relatively new, he aked me "did the block you're calling affect the play?" I told him, "Matt, that block opened the hole, and is the why he was able to score." He signaled it, marked it off, and on we went. We talked about it at half time, and he told me that he wasn't questioning what I saw at all - he just wanted to be sure that what I was calling was "there", and not an off-ball foul that didn't affect the play. I've worked with him a few times since then, and he hasn't asked any more questions like that.

Especially as a newer official, I appreciated that he was looking to make me a better official. I'm hoping to transition to WH over the next few seasons, at least for JV games, and - for the first and second year guys - will probably try to use the flags as a "teaching moment" for the rookies as well.

While I don't mind being questioned, I would be concerned with a WH who would want to waive off a block in the back because it didn't affect the play. BIB, clips, chop blocks, facemasks, are all saftey related fouls and should be enforced all the time. Holding is different because it's not a saftey issue, but BIB cetainly is, which is why it's illegal. That WH needs to go back to school.

[VALJ]

Actually, I agree wholeheartedly with that, Jim. A foul involving player safety is something that I'm always going to call, and I would certainly (now) expect a WH to have no hesitation with that no matter where it is on the field - and stand up to him if he tried to talk me into waving it off. My second year, though, I was still learning my way through things, and was still trying to get my feet under me, and I wasn't going to question a "vet" like him.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

While I don't mind being questioned, I would be concerned with a WH who would want to waive off a block in the back because it didn't affect the play. BIB, clips, chop blocks, facemasks, are all saftey related fouls and should be enforced all the time. Holding is different because it's not a saftey issue, but BIB cetainly is, which is why it's illegal. That WH needs to go back to school.

Frankly, I don't see a garden variety BIB this way at all. It' had better be at the point of attack or warrant a PF before it's called on my crew.

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Frankly, I don't see a garden variety BIB this way at all. It' had better be at the point of attack or warrant a PF before it's called on my crew.

Rich, I think I know what you mean in that you wouldn't call a bump in the back away from the play because it 1) was not dangerous and 2) it did not affect the play. However, for the newer officials it's important to emphasis that the reason a BIB is illegal is because it's a saftey issue. A block from the front or side is allowed because a player can see it coming and brace for it, while a BIB is unexpected and more likely to lead to injury. A good official will not use the advantage/disadvantage philosphies on BIB, clips and other calls where the saftey of a player is involved.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

A WH can't overrule another official. Now we all (no matter what position we're working) will talk to another crew member if we think he's wrong, and we should never let the crew make a mistake.

A WH should always respect your flag. If he doesn't, you might as well stay home. The only way he should overrule you is if you're wrong (you called it illegal motion and it was clearly and illegal shift, or you penalized the player for a PF for cussing instead of USC, etc. The penalty still stands, he just gets to correct the call.)

I did overturn an ejection a few seasons ago. We were in the middle of a scrum and my partner and I saw the same activity and he said we needed to eject a player. I disagreed. Again, a case of two officials that disagree on the same play. And on that one, I won (at the time, I thought the game was better served with no ejection and I didn't think the offense really warranted a flagrant USC foul). When the WH has identical coverage with another official and disagrees with the other official, the WH is going to prevail -- right or wrong. It's happened once for me in many years this way. And I will also say I have considerably more experience in most cases compared with the members on my crew. I am not asking questions or guiding people's decisions in order to live my own power trip, it's just me doing my job. If the official can't explain a call or decision to me, how will he go back to his sideline and talk with a coach?

Where I live, I recruit people to my crew and I also deal with establishing and maintaining our schedule with commissioners and athletic directors. Let me say this: I may have no specific authority during a game to stop someone from ejecting a player or coach or calling any penalty, but I also have no requirement to keep an official who makes poor choices in this area on my crew, either. I've fired 2 crew members in the past 5 years (neither, actually, for on-field performance, not directly), so depending on how your area works, getting in a pissing match with the referee may not be a wise idea if you want to work on that crew or any crew.