Can an official besides the WH eject players/coaches if he sees fit?

[Brandon Kincer]

I guess what im asking in short is: If I see a foul that is cause for ejection and I am NOT the White Hat, What are the proper channels I would have to go through to eject that player or coach?

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

I guess what im asking in short is: If I see a foul that is cause for ejection and I am NOT the White Hat, What are the proper channels I would have to go through to eject that player or coach?

You go to the referee after the play is over and tell the WH that you have such and such a foul and that #82 is ejected for (fill in the reason).

The WH will give the signals. You and the WH should then go over to the team's head coach and you should tell the HC that #82 has been ejected and explain to him why.

Unless you're a really new official, the WH shouldn't question your ejection. If you're a rookie and you ejected him for saying "Oh, darn", the the WH might suggest you rethink it, but it's your call all the way. The WH does not get a vote on it, not can he overrule your call.

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

You go to the referee after the play is over and tell the WH that you have such and such a foul and that #82 is ejected for (fill in the reason).

The WH will give the signals. You and the WH should then go over to the team's head coach and you should tell the HC that #82 has been ejected and explain to him why.

Unless you're a really new official, the WH shouldn't question your ejection. If you're a rookie and you ejected him for saying "Oh, darn", the the WH might suggest you rethink it, but it's your call all the way. The WH does not get a vote on it, not can he overrule your call.

Wtih that Being said, Can a White hat over rule any penalty that you call or is he there for the sole purpose of settling disputes among the officials?

[Jim D.]

A WH can't overrule another official. Now we all (no matter what position we're working) will talk to another crew member if we think he's wrong, and we should never let the crew make a mistake.

A WH should always respect your flag. If he doesn't, you might as well stay home. The only way he should overrule you is if you're wrong (you called it illegal motion and it was clearly and illegal shift, or you penalized the player for a PF for cussing instead of USC, etc. The penalty still stands, he just gets to correct the call.)

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

A WH can't overrule another official. Now we all (no matter what position we're working) will talk to another crew member if we think he's wrong, and we should never let the crew make a mistake.

A WH should always respect your flag. If he doesn't, you might as well stay home. The only way he should overrule you is if you're wrong (you called it illegal motion and it was clearly and illegal shift, or you penalized the player for a PF for cussing instead of USC, etc. The penalty still stands, he just gets to correct the call.)

Just so that you veteran guys know I am new at this and will become certified this upcoming season. Im trying to learn the ins and outs of football officiating.

My next question is what is the difference between an official wearing a White hat and an official wearing a Black hat. Obviously the Referee wears the White hat but what authority does he have that the other officials do not?

[Jim D.]

The referee's only specific authority over and above the other officials involve:
Weather delays (with the game admin & coaches)
Forfeiting the game
Problems not specified in the rule book (this will never happen in a career)

You might think of the WH as being the spokesman for the crew. He takes the lead in many of the game duties - meeting with the coaches before the game, handling the coin toss, signalling penalties, signalling ready for play, etc. He would also back up the calling official if a meeting with the coach is necessary for an ejection or a rule explaination.

Since most eyes are on the WH, it's important that he look sharp and have great mechanics and signals. He should practice in signals front of a mirror and review tapes. If the WH looks sharp, the crew will look good.

Off the field, you may or may not be the leader or crew chief on your crew. It's common that the WH take the lead as far as setting up rules study sessions and other things like that, but it could be done by anyone.

Other than than, the WH has no more authority than any other official on the field. He is just one of the crew with his own specific area and players to watch.

[Brandon Kincer]

and this is according to the NFHS standards right?

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

The referee is the lead official of the crew. If you go to the NFHS Officials Manual the duties of each official as to the pregame responsibilities are described. The white hat designates to everyone the person in charge as opposed to the black hat. In most cases a white hat will not overrule another official. On the field responsibilities are not as strictly defined.

I can only speak for myself as a referee but every official on my crew has the same standing as myself when it comes to what you see and call on the field. Of course, that requires you as an official learn the proper mechanics and rule application. There will be times when you may see something different than another official and if you feel strongly about your call discuss with the other official regardless of the hat being worn or the number of years that official has been working. However, at no time openly and/or loudly dispute another official on the field.

in the manual it also states the procedure for calling a disqualifying foul is as follows (Not word for word but basically):

The calling official shall notify the player/coach that he is ejected
The official shall make it clear that it is for the rest of the game
and then report to the White Hat and other officials the number and foul

Originally Posted by Jim D.

A WH can't overrule another official. Now we all (no matter what position we're working) will talk to another crew member if we think he's wrong, and we should never let the crew make a mistake.

A WH should always respect your flag. If he doesn't, you might as well stay home. The only way he should overrule you is if you're wrong (you called it illegal motion and it was clearly and illegal shift, or you penalized the player for a PF for cussing instead of USC, etc. The penalty still stands, he just gets to correct the call.)

Im not as expeirenced as most but I do agree with what Jim D said. If an official says he saw what he saw, throws the flag, and makes the call then he has done his job. I think having someone come behind you and overrule a call that you made (whether it be an ejection or a simple 5 yard penalty) makes the crew look some what like they do not know what they are doing.

For Example: Last year I was the line judge for a junior rec league football game. After the snap the runner was tackled about 10-15 yards beyond the LOS. I threw a flag and instantly another official came up to the white hat before I got to him to discuss what i was calling and was saying "That was a legal hit, There was no block in the back" The white hat waived it off but little did he know I was not calling a block in the back. I was calling illegal helmet contact due to the player lowering his head and making contact with the runner. (I guess its also known as spearing)

I told my coordinator about what had happened and he agreed that no official's call should ever be waived off unless he himself decides to do so after discussing with the other officials the rule in which he is enforcing.

[HLin NC]

Similar experience happened to me about 8 years ago. I had about 7 years under my belt then but had moved to a new region. My first scrimmage with my new group, a LB grabs the TE coming off the line and holds him. I flag it and the WH starts yelling "that's not pass interference" at me. After the play was over, I calmly told him "I know, I've got Holding on the defense".

Sometimes if you are a young and/or inexperienced official, veterans will try to overcompensate for you. Its not usually done intentionally.

Keep working hard, get in the rules and mechanics books. Work every game you can, order some of the supplemental guides out there. Talk plays over with your crewmates at meetings and after the games.

Show your crew that you are proactive and you will gain their trust.

Originally Posted by HLin NC

Similar experience happened to me about 8 years ago. I had about 7 years under my belt then but had moved to a new region. My first scrimmage with my new group, a LB grabs the TE coming off the line and holds him. I flag it and the WH starts yelling "that's not pass interference" at me. After the play was over, I calmly told him "I know, I've got Holding on the defense".

Sometimes if you are a young and/or inexperienced official, veterans will try to overcompensate for you. Its not usually done intentionally.

Had a similar experience last fall. A receiver was in motion in the backfield, and just a moment before the snap, turned up field, and was in the neutral zone just as the ball was snapped. (Pretty fast, but I caught it because it was on my end of the line) I blew the play dead, flagged it, and reported it as a false start. My white hat looked at me and said you don't have a false start, you have an illegal motion, and you let the play go. I said he was in the neutral zone when the ball was snapped. White hat went to the other wing, who could only confirm the forward motion, but not the neutral zone infraction. White hat looked at me again and said, that's illegal motion.

At halftime, we discussed this, and white hat was going off about me blowing the play dead. I was the only one in the room who insisted it had to be blown dead because the receiver was in the neutral zone at the snap, and his motion caused him to be there. So being the "least experienced" official, I "kowtowed" to the crew and said it would never happen again, but I expected them to do the explaining when a coach complains we got the call wrong. They said a coach won't complain. Lo and behold, we had it happen in the second half, and coach went ballastic because our enforcement changed. I explained to him that it wasn't a false start, but illegal motion and I made the mistake in the first half (but I felt like s**t saying that because I know I was right). He had a conference with the white hat, who said the same thing. Coach then asked me (after white hat went back to his position) what the crew threatened me with during halftime. I calmly said "nothing".

In retrospect, if I would have said encroachment instead of false start, I wonder if this whole scenario would have played out or not. But the point of the matter is, you see the play, you flag it, and then report it to the white hat. If there's any question, you will have a discussion, but ultimately the white hat shouldn't overrule you because YOU saw the part of the play you flagged.

[With_Two_Flakes]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

Im not as expeirenced as most but I do agree with what Jim D said. If an official says he saw what he saw, throws the flag, and makes the call then he has done his job. I think having someone come behind you and overrule a call that you made (whether it be an ejection or a simple 5 yard penalty) makes the crew look some what like they do not know what they are doing.

Well you have to be careful about this subject. If I throw a flag then I have no problem with another offcial coming to me and asking what I saw. A key point is that it is done out of earshot of players/coaches. I work NCAA so passes have to be catchable for DPI. I flag a DPI and my fellow official comes to me and asks "Did you see the ball?" That makes me think about whether the pass was catchable. I'm more concerned about getting the call right than whether I look good. We are a crew out there - not just 4, 5, 6 or 7 individuals.

Equally I have no problem asking a question. Last year I worked a game as White Hat. The runner ran toward the sideline, ahead of him a block was made by a pulling guard #67, looked like a good side block. The Line Judge threw in a flag. After the play, he reported that he had a Block in the back by #67. I asked "Are you sure? I saw that block too and it looked like it was Ok and in the side." The Line Judge (who has as many years of experience as me) said "You know what? You're right, it was in the side. Wave it off."

The white hat waived it off but little did he know I was not calling a block in the back. I was calling illegal helmet contact due to the player lowering his head and making contact with the runner. (I guess its also known as spearing)

I'm not sure I understand this example you gave - "little did he know?" You went up to the white hat to report what you had right?
I have a strict rule on my crew. You throw a flag, you talk to the White Hat. The only exception is that if there are two flags, the guys are allowed to talk to each other first to make sure that have the same foul, then one of them comes to me to report it. So on my crew your situation could not have happened. If you have a flag, you come talk to me and tell me what you have got.

[JRutledge]

All the Referee does is run the administrative parts of the game. I cannot think of anything they run other than this part. When I was the Referee once that game starts, I had to be good at my part of the field or my responsibilities; I never took my job as the leader or being in charge. I took my job as apart of the crew and I was not the crew chief off the field either.

Peace

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by With_Two_Flakes

I'm not sure I understand this example you gave - "little did he know?" You went up to the white hat to report what you had right?
I have a strict rule on my crew. You throw a flag, you talk to the White Hat. The only exception is that if there are two flags, the guys are allowed to talk to each other first to make sure that have the same foul, then one of them comes to me to report it. So on my crew your situation could not have happened. If you have a flag, you come talk to me and tell me what you have got.

In saying "Little did he know" I ment he didn't even ask what my call was due to the fact he had another official come up and say he saw a legal hit. Correct me if im wrong but I do not feel that it was his place to say that my call was inaccurate. I would have preferred he come up to me and simply ask me what I saw. Besides, The play was on my side of the field and he was all the way accross the field. In the officials manual it says that since the play was on my side of the field he should have been looking for blocks in the back by players closest to him. Again correct me if im wrong.

I'm more concerned about getting the call right than whether I look good. We are a crew out there - not just 4, 5, 6 or 7 individuals.

My main concern is getting the call right as well which is why I completely agree with discussing the call with other officials on the field but I also agree that it should ultimately be up to the calling official as to whether the call stands or not. After all he is the one that saw the play and obviously saw something wrong with it. No doubt, communication is key.

Futhur more I also agree with reporting the foul to the White Hat. He's the one that has to give the signal and deal the with the coaches. However, I do not feel he has the authority to waive off a call that you feel solid on because he didn't see it to. The thing to remember is there are 3,4,5,6 other individuals out there to insure that nothing is missed. For example, The referee might not see something that the LJ can and did see.

[VALJ]

Originally Posted by With_Two_Flakes

Equally I have no problem asking a question. Last year I worked a game as White Hat. The runner ran toward the sideline, ahead of him a block was made by a pulling guard #67, looked like a good side block. The Line Judge threw in a flag. After the play, he reported that he had a Block in the back by #67. I asked "Are you sure? I saw that block too and it looked like it was Ok and in the side." The Line Judge (who has as many years of experience as me) said "You know what? You're right, it was in the side. Wave it off."

My second or third year, I had a similar situation in a JV game, and it didn't faze me that the R asked a bit. I had a sweep coming to my side, and the pulling guard blasted the linebacker who was in position to make the play. Unfortunately for the offense, he got him in the back right between the numbers. That block opened the hole that the RB went through for a TD. After the play, I reported the BIB to the R. Knowing that I was still relatively new, he aked me "did the block you're calling affect the play?" I told him, "Matt, that block opened the hole, and is the why he was able to score." He signaled it, marked it off, and on we went. We talked about it at half time, and he told me that he wasn't questioning what I saw at all - he just wanted to be sure that what I was calling was "there", and not an off-ball foul that didn't affect the play. I've worked with him a few times since then, and he hasn't asked any more questions like that.

Especially as a newer official, I appreciated that he was looking to make me a better official. I'm hoping to transition to WH over the next few seasons, at least for JV games, and - for the first and second year guys - will probably try to use the flags as a "teaching moment" for the rookies as well.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

A WH can't overrule another official. Now we all (no matter what position we're working) will talk to another crew member if we think he's wrong, and we should never let the crew make a mistake.

A WH should always respect your flag. If he doesn't, you might as well stay home. The only way he should overrule you is if you're wrong (you called it illegal motion and it was clearly and illegal shift, or you penalized the player for a PF for cussing instead of USC, etc. The penalty still stands, he just gets to correct the call.)

I did overturn an ejection a few seasons ago. We were in the middle of a scrum and my partner and I saw the same activity and he said we needed to eject a player. I disagreed. Again, a case of two officials that disagree on the same play. And on that one, I won (at the time, I thought the game was better served with no ejection and I didn't think the offense really warranted a flagrant USC foul). When the WH has identical coverage with another official and disagrees with the other official, the WH is going to prevail -- right or wrong. It's happened once for me in many years this way. And I will also say I have considerably more experience in most cases compared with the members on my crew. I am not asking questions or guiding people's decisions in order to live my own power trip, it's just me doing my job. If the official can't explain a call or decision to me, how will he go back to his sideline and talk with a coach?

Where I live, I recruit people to my crew and I also deal with establishing and maintaining our schedule with commissioners and athletic directors. Let me say this: I may have no specific authority during a game to stop someone from ejecting a player or coach or calling any penalty, but I also have no requirement to keep an official who makes poor choices in this area on my crew, either. I've fired 2 crew members in the past 5 years (neither, actually, for on-field performance, not directly), so depending on how your area works, getting in a pissing match with the referee may not be a wise idea if you want to work on that crew or any crew.