Reddings guide illegal participation

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by KWH

This was a very good thread. Hopefully it will develop into a Rule change proposal for consideration by the NFHS Football Committee in January of 2010.
JimD, BobM and others have provided some positive comments and sound reasoning for the committee to consider closing this loophole.
However, that being said, until such time as the Committee changes the current rule This play is legal and the interpretation in the Redding Guide IS correct! Under the current NFHS Rules this player is NOT (by rule) out of bounds. Additionally, for an official to manufacture an interpretation other than the current Redding Interpretation would be erroniuos and would NOT be supported by rule.

Many comments on this and another forums thread's have used words like untenable, illogical, sensible, common sense, spirit of the rules, gut feel, ect. These are all great words and thoughts however, the one problem is again, currently, there is no rule support for a ruling in this situation other than "Legal Play!"

Do I like it? NO!
Do I support it? YES! Of course, this play has rule book support and therefore it has to be legal!
To present a proposal for consideration to close this loophole (as long as it is well thought and would not cause any unintended circumstances) likely would be good for the game. To fabricate ones own ruling on this (or any other) situation would be foolhardy and a bit askew! Actions such as this by officials can NEVER be in the best interest of the game.

Rule references for this situation would include: 2-4-1, 2-29-1, 2 & 3, 7-5-5, 9-6-1 & 2!
And,
Again, since the action, did NOT violate any of the rules listed above, the play is currently, by rule, "Legal!"

We are required to officiate the rules by the rulebook. Someone suggested implementing 1-1-6. Unfortunatly, this would be an incorrect application of 1-1-6. Why? Simply because 1-1-6 is for utilization when a situation occurs that is not specifically covered in the rules. Like it or not, and as unfortunate as it may be, this situation IS specifically covered by the current rules as, the player, (by definition) is NOT (as much as we want him to be) out of bounds.

I won't argue with any of your suppositions, except that your conclusion still requires acceptance of an interpretation that, in my judgment, makes absolutely no sense and has no logical reason. In the rare circumstance that a player, who has rendered himself OOB, jumps in the air while OOB to touch a live ball, I'm going to consider the ball dead the instance he touches it.

I'm not disregarding any ruling, I'm simply enforcing a ruling that I believe is implied by existing rules and disagreeing with your conclusions. I am perfectly willing to accept any consequences that result from applying basic common sense and logic to interpret a rule that does not specifically address such an odd ( and specific) circumstance.

I just don't believe we're out there to enforce anything we agree isn't right, just because someone has suggested, "it says so". Sorry, may be willing to sell my soul, but not for something as trivial as this.

[jaybird]

Originally Posted by ajmc

I won't argue with any of your suppositions, except that your conclusion still requires acceptance of an interpretation that, in my judgment, makes absolutely no sense and has no logical reason. In the rare circumstance that a player, who has rendered himself OOB, jumps in the air while OOB to touch a live ball, I'm going to consider the ball dead the instance he touches it.

I'm not disregarding any ruling, I'm simply enforcing a ruling that I believe is implied by existing rules and disagreeing with your conclusions. I am perfectly willing to accept any consequences that result from applying basic common sense and logic to interpret a rule that does not specifically address such an odd ( and specific) circumstance.

I just don't believe we're out there to enforce anything we agree isn't right, just because someone has suggested, "it says so". Sorry, may be willing to sell my soul, but not for something as trivial as this.

Just won't give up, will ya?

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by jaybird

Just won't give up, will ya?

It's not about giving up, or not giving up. I'm open to being persuaded that your assessment makes sense, just explain why it does, with something more than "because I said so", or that you or someone else thinks it says so.

With all due respect to the Redding people, "the receiver was not out of bounds when he touched the ball since he was airborne", just seems ridiculous to me and defies common sense, logic and the notion of rationality in the construction and purpose of any rule.

Don't get yourself all worked up about it, the chances of this actually happening are remote, but if they should repeat, we're both empowered to rule as we think we should. Either way, someone might just ask for an explanation. I'm comfortable in explaining my conclusion.

[kdf5]

So if you're "open to being persuaded" then why is it that a "founding member of the Colorado Collegiate Football Officials Assoc. and President of the Colorado Football Officials Assoc." and who's authored a respected guide to the NF rules "makes absolutely no sense"? It seems to me that you're not open to being persuaded at all and that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, period, and only because you say so.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by kdf5

So if you're "open to being persuaded" then why is it that a "founding member of the Colorado Collegiate Football Officials Assoc. and President of the Colorado Football Officials Assoc." and who's authored a respected guide to the NF rules "makes absolutely no sense"? It seems to me that you're not open to being persuaded at all and that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, period, and only because you say so.

Why are you getting frustrated and angry? You raised a point and asked a question and I've tried to explain my position as best I can. I'm not telling you you're wrong, I'm telling you I don't understand how your position can be right. If you're smart enough to convince me that your position makes sense, I'll certainly reconsider, but thus far you haven't even come close.

With all due respect to the, ""founding member of the Colorado Collegiate Football Officials Assoc. and President of the Colorado Football Officials Assoc." (and) who's authored a respected guide to the NF rules", suggesting that, ""the receiver was not out of bounds when he touched the ball since he was airborne", just doesn't light any lights for me. I didn't say you. or he, was wrong, I just don't see how that position could possibly be right and nothing you've offered thus far has been at all persuasive or convincing.

If you're ever confronted with this situation you can do what you think is right, and hope nobody asks you to explain why.

[jaybird]

If you're ever confronted with this situation you can do what you think is right, and hope nobody asks you to explain why.

Why? What would be so difficult in saying, "Coach, by rule there is no foul because by definition the player was not OOB"? Enough said. Next play.
... and all it took was one sentence, not six paragraphs!

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by jaybird

If you're ever confronted with this situation you can do what you think is right, and hope nobody asks you to explain why.

Why? What would be so difficult in saying, "Coach, by rule there is no foul because by definition the player was not OOB"? Enough said. Next play.
... and all it took was one sentence, not six paragraphs!

Knock yourself out Jaybird. If you're comfortable with that response, and can get away with it, that may be all you will ever need. It's when the questioner responds, "but we both saw him step on/over the side line before he touched the ball", that your explanation may get interesting, but I'm sure you'll be prepared to handle it with equal brevity.

Good luck.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by ajmc

If you're ever confronted with this situation you can do what you think is right, and hope nobody asks you to explain why.

See, there you go again. "hope nobody asks you to explain why". I think I'll be able to explain it a lot easier than you will. But like you said, it's probably never going to happen, you hope.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by kdf5

See, there you go again. "hope nobody asks you to explain why". I think I'll be able to explain it a lot easier than you will. But like you said, it's probably never going to happen, you hope.

I don't know, Kdf5 offering,"When a ball touches anything OOB it's dead, and he clearly went OOB before he touched it", doesn't seem to leave a lot of room for additional discussion.

If there should be a follow comment about, "Wait a minute, doesn't the rule say touching.....", I'll rely on a response of, "That doesn't make any sense and is ridiculous" to end the conversation. That is, if it ever happens.