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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2009, 11:05am
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And once again you produce pages of shuck and jive without the slightest hint of any rule reference to back up your position.

2-29-1...A player or other person is out of bounds when any part of the person is touching anything, other than another player or game official that is on or outside the sideline or end line.

Note it doesn't say "has touched". It says "touching". Please cite the rule that says a player who steps out of bounds has "rendered" himself out of bounds even when he's not touching out of bounds. I've cited the rule that says he's OB if he's "touching". Let's have yours. Rule ______.

Now, if he's touching then he's OB and if he isn't touching then he's got to be inbounds. There is no other status a player can have is there? He's in or he's out, period. He's out when he's "TOUCHING" (not has touched, "TOUCHING" with an -ing, touching, again referencing Rule 2-29-1). There's my first rule citing. Let's see yours. By the way, rules are listed in the book with hyphens such as 9-6-1 and 6-3-1.

9-6-1...Prior to a change of possession, or when there is no change of possession, no player of A or K shall go out of bounds and return during the down unless blocked out of bounds by an opponent. If a player is blocked out of bounds by an opponent and returns inbounds during the down, he shall return at the first opportunity. There's my second rule citing.

So how did he return? He "returned" when he left the ground and batted the ball. It doesn't matter where he is when he leaves the ground. When he leaves the ground he is no longer "touching". And by batting the ball to A87 he has had an influence on the play. This is called "participation". 2-30...Participation is any act or action by a player or non-player that has an influence on play.. There's my third rule citing. Let's see yours.

9-6-1 is called Illegal Participation. It's a live ball basic spot foul. Now here's what I predict you will do. You are going to compose a seven paragraph fiction telling me what I think I read is wrong and that my logic is not as good as yours and what you know is right and you don't need to cite any rules because we should all know you know. Come on, I dare you, cite rules to back up your position.
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2009, 11:28am
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Originally Posted by waltjp View Post

Nowhere in the rule book or case book is it suggested that a player needs to re-establish his position inbounds after touching out of bounds. If you can find anything so support your own personal interpretation I'd be happy to consider it.
Walt, I understand what the rule book says, and what is says is that for a player to become OOB, he needs to touch OOB, and I have no problem with that. Nowhere, that I can find, does it state or even suggest that to remain OOB, that touching must be constant.

On the contrary, the notion that by somehow leaping up into the air, after establishing himself as being OOB would somehow automatically revert his status back to being inbounds, just doesn't make a lick of common sense nor offer any reasonable logic that follows the general flow of any rule regarding being OOB.

People who are OOB are not supposed to participate in the game, participation is reserved for those who are inbounds (legally). That's not rocket science. I think we all agree a player is either inbounds or OOB. There's no mystery associated with this, or shouldn't be.

If a player is (touching) OOB, he's OOB and his touching a live ball, kills the ball. That's crystal clear and makes perfect sense. If a player goes OOB, then returns inbounds (under the wrong conditions) he comits a foul if he subsequently participates (interferes with) in the play. The logic is clear, when you're OOB you can't play and if you touch the ball, you kill it.

How does reversing this logic and concept make any sense by suggesting, a player (who has clearly established himself as being OOB) can somehow reestablish his status as being inbounds by simply jumping into the air (while OOB).

Trying to apply Illegal Participation to a situation like this seems way too harsh, because the vast majority of situations is simply someone trying to make a play and inadvertently, accidentally or even deliberately stepping on a line. Why would the rules want to provide this ridiculous advantage?

Logic, common sense and the written rule dictate that a live ball touching a player OOB is a dead ball. What possible difference could it make whether that player is still touching the ground or jumping above it when he touches the ball?

If ever there was an example of reading way more into a rule than was ever intended, this has to be it. When something doesn't make ANY SENSE it can't be right.
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2009, 12:20pm
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Originally Posted by kdf5 View Post
And once again you produce pages of shuck and jive without the slightest hint of any rule reference to back up your position.

[ I've cited the rule that says he's OB if he's "touching". Let's have yours. Rule ______.

There's my first rule citing. Let's see yours. By the way, rules are listed in the book with hyphens such as 9-6-1 and 6-3-1.


So how did he return? He "returned" when he left the ground and batted the ball. It doesn't matter where he is when he leaves the ground. . There's my third rule citing. Let's see yours.

Come on, I dare you, cite rules to back up your position.
Forgive me Kd5, but I've tried to avoid "show me yours and I'l show you mine" arguments" since about when I left 3rd grade, so I may be a little out of practice. I appreciate your coaching me about using hyphens, rather than periods, to list rule references. Old habits are hard to break and I'm really happy you were able to follow along despite this grand transgression.

My father advised me long ago, "Never argue with a fool" and when I've ignored that advise I've always regretted it.

One of the wonderful things about officiating is that, on the field, we get to do pretty much whatever we like, whenever we like. Of course the other side of that coin is that we are held totally responsible, and accountable, for everything we choose to do at an extremely high standard.

You get to choose to follow your logic, and I sincerely hope you never have to try and explain that choice on a field, and I get to follow what I see as rationaland logical and have no worry, whatsoever, about explaining or justifying my choice.

Citing rules is always important and good practice, because it provides opportunity to constantly refresh our knowledge base, but understanding the rule, it's meaning, it's function and it's purpose may even be more important than memorizing the words. I'd reference the same rules you have, the only difference being I look a little deeper than the exact sequence of words and am guided by common sense as to how they should be applied.

You might try opening your mind and thinking about why what you read may have been written. That's something they may not cover until 4th grade, so be ready for and good luck with it.
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2009, 01:05pm
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Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
Forgive me Kd5, but I've tried to avoid "show me yours and I'l show you mine" arguments" since about when I left 3rd grade, so I may be a little out of practice.
Not true.


Quote:
You get to choose to follow your logic, and I sincerely hope you never have to try and explain that choice on a field, and I get to follow what I see as rationaland logical and have no worry, whatsoever, about explaining or justifying my choice.
I've explained my logic using rules, specifically 2-29-1, 2-30 and 9-6-1. You've again failed to cite ANY rules to back up your argument. All you've stated is that "our interpretation of what we perceive defies, common sense, logic and reality" yet it's walt and me who've cited concrete, specific rules and you haven't. I'm not sure who's going to have a tougher time here. I'm going to pull out the rule book and point to these rules. What are you going to do, say "What possible difference could it make whether that player is still touching the ground or jumping above it when he touches the ball"?

Quote:
Citing rules is always important and good practice, because it provides opportunity to constantly refresh our knowledge base, but understanding the rule, it's meaning, it's function and it's purpose may even be more important than memorizing the words. I'd reference the same rules you have, the only difference being I look a little deeper than the exact sequence of words and am guided by common sense as to how they should be applied.
That's the problem with you. You apply your own logic to rules that are written, as walt said, in black and white, plus it's me who's cited rules, not you.

Quote:
You might try opening your mind and thinking about why what you read may have been written. That's something they may not cover until 4th grade, so be ready for and good luck with it.
So if you aren't trying to show me yours, why the put downs and references to grade school? I've opened my mind. I take the word "touching" to mean that he is in the process of being directly in contact with the ground. What more can be applied or what more common sense can be used to interpret the word "touching"? If he's touching then he's out of bounds and by opening up my mind I glean from it that if he's not touching then he must be inbounds. If he's standing at the 50 on the logo and jumps in the air he's inbounds. Not that tough. Please cite the exact rule that says a player, once he steps out of bounds, stays out of bounds no matter what he does after that. I've cited the rule that says he's inbounds if he's not out of bounds. Let's have yours.
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2009, 02:34pm
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Originally Posted by kdf5 View Post
Not true.


I've explained my logic using rules, specifically 2-29-1, 2-30 and 9-6-1. You've again failed to cite ANY rules to back up your argument. All you've stated is that "our interpretation of what we perceive defies, common sense, logic and reality" yet it's walt and me who've cited concrete, specific rules and you haven't.
Please cite the exact rule that says a player, once he steps out of bounds, stays out of bounds no matter what he does after that. I've cited the rule that says he's inbounds if he's not out of bounds. Let's have yours.
I'll give it one more shot, Kdf5. I would cite the same NF: 2.29.1 and NF: 9.6.1 to support my assessments. I don't have a problem with the language of either rule to support a logical and rational interpretation. My problem is that I believe your insistance on focusing on your restricted and limiting interpretation of "touching" is simply ridiculous and makes no sense.

You seem bound and determined to insist on a new definition of "inbounds", that I suspect the rules makers would think totally unnecessary given the current definition, and understanding, of OOB. NF:2.29.1 clearly states a player is OOB is touching anything, other than another player or game official that is on or outside the sideline or end line".

The rule does NOT say, suggest or infer anything remotely along the line that once OOB, to remain OOB, requires constant touching to the ground. Probably because such a statement would be insulting the intelligence of anyone reading the rule.

Similarly, NF:9.6.1. states "no player shall go OOB and return during the down unless blocked OOB by an opponent". How you conjur up that after being OOB, jumping up in the air (while still OOB) somehow equates to actually returning inbounds is simply beyond my comprehension. The rule you are so adamant about citing, says nothing to support your conclusion.

Neither you, nor Walt, have cited a single example supporting your theory that makes any common sense or logic. You are both hung up on the tense of a single word that you have decided is limiting to the extent it renders the entire rule as foolish.

You are free to, "take the word "touching" to mean that he is in the process of being directly in contact with the ground", but expanding it to infer that any subsequent detachment from the ground somehow reverses the status of being OOB and automatically restores the player's status to be inbounds is just silly.

When you suggest, "If he's touching then he's out of bounds and by opening up my mind I glean from it that if he's not touching then he must be inbounds, my only advice would be to reboot your mind and open it again. Perhaps my reference to grade school is a byproduct of all my "shucking and jiving".

Last edited by ajmc; Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 02:41pm.
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2009, 03:05pm
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2-29-1...A player or other person is out of bounds when any part of the person is touching anything, other than another player or game official that is on or outside the sideline or end line.

Since the NF hasn't defined inbounds but has defined out of bounds then there's no other conclusion but to say he's in if he's not out. What other status could he have? Again, I ask you to cite a rule backing up your conclusions and the fact is, you can't. Why is it that my literal use of the word touching is wrong but your contentions are accurate? Give me rules to back up your contentions.

You said: "This question relates, specifically, to a player who has already rendered himself OOB, and while OOB leaps up into the air. You are suggesting that, somehow, this act of leaping into the air from an OOB position, miraculously, returns the player to an inbounds status. Forgive me, but this assessment makes absolutely no sense, has no basis is logic, common sense or anything related to the flow of the game." Please cite for me the rule that says once he renders himself out of bounds he stays out of bounds even though he's not touching. You can't. All you have to go on is YOUR interpretation. I have the rule.

You also said "Trying to apply Illegal Participation to a situation like this seems way too harsh". Well let's say A83 steps on the sideline, jumps in the air, bats the ball and A87 takes it to the house. If you don't flag this then who's received the harsh treatment? Or turn it around. B intercepts and takes it in and you call it an incomplete pass. Now who's paid the price. I've got rules to justify my IP flag and take away the score or let the score stand. You've ignored the rule and applied your own rule. All you have is your interpretation yet I'm wrong and you're right? Time and time again I've backed up my position with the rule book and time and time again you've not posted one rule to back up yours. The beauty of the rule is that it doesn't require your interpretation so why do you insist on interpreting it?
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2009, 03:38pm
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Come on now fellas lets think about this. Now lets assume that rather than being just out of bounds (OOB), the player goes and sits in the stands, the bandshall, on the track or down by the goal line. The QB launches the ball to the OOB player wherever he may be. At the perfect moment the OOB player jumps up and bats the ball to his player who takes it in for a score. Ridiculous? Yes? Legal? Call it how you want. I have a whistle and an incomplete pass.

This is the problem with a code based on an all inclusive set of rules. Rulemakers that try to cover everything in a code find that it is not possible. The limitations in our language and multiple interepretations make it impossible. Thus gaps remain. Efforts to fill the gaps often create more problems. We have seen this recently with the new rules carrying penalties to the kickoff (and the resulting problems when the score occured on the last timed down of a half). In the American judicial system the "gaps" are filled in by "the common law". The common law employs ideas of morality and common sense. Sounds like this is a gap.
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2009, 04:13pm
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But we aren't talking about a player in the stands. We are talking about one who's stepped on the sideline then batted a pass out of the air. Remember, Reddings (if we can use them as an arbiter) says the ball stays live after he leaps in the air and catches it (a) or bats it in (b). My disagreement is that he should be flagged in both plays, not just (a).
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2009, 05:23pm
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Originally Posted by kdf5 View Post
[I]

Time and time again I've backed up my position with the rule book and time and time again you've not posted one rule to back up yours. The beauty of the rule is that it doesn't require your interpretation so why do you insist on interpreting it?
You are perfectly free to do what you think is correct, Kdf5, regardless of what I suggest, understanding that you will have to accept whatever consequences your interpretation brings. I'm willing to accept and deal with whatever consequences my interpretation may bring.

However, all your repeating that "the rules" support your interpretation is absolute and utter nonsense. There is no rule that addresses how, what or why a player who goes OOB remains OOB, which cuts both ways so there is no specific language supporting your contention either.

You are entitled to your interpretation of what limitations use of the word "touching" entails, and I simply do not agree, or accept, your litteral interpretation, which I am fully entitled to do.

I've learned, over a relatively long period of time, when there is no specific reference to some unique situation, applying common sense and basic logic is a much more practical approach to finding a workable solution than trying to force some obscure explanation, that cannot be logically and plainly defined.

You do as you choose, and I'll follow my instincts, but stop deluding yourself that your position is directly supported by rule. It is not, not even close.
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2009, 06:27pm
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Well then, what do you do if said OOB receiver leaps near the sideline and swats the ball away from an inbounds B who is about to intercept the ball? You still have an A who has gone OOB, he still has merely leaped and not returned, so must still be OOB per your "ruling" and therefore all you have is an incomplete even if it prevents a B from catching the ball. Or does the reasoning change according to how the play works out and by what rule do you justify a changing ruling depending on the outcome of the play?
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2009, 07:06pm
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Al, you conveniently ignored rule 2-4, the definition of a catch, which states that a catch is completed when player gains possession of the ball and first touches inbounds. Nowhere does it say that the player must have first established his position inbounds.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 10, 2009, 07:40am
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I happen to see the logic with AJMC statements.
You have someone that runs OOB and then stands there and jumps up and down. So his status changes each time he leaps into the air?
Even though the rule says that this is correct, this defies logic.
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 10, 2009, 08:02am
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Originally Posted by Mike L View Post
Well then, what do you do if said OOB receiver leaps near the sideline and swats the ball away from an inbounds B who is about to intercept the ball? You still have an A who has gone OOB, he still has merely leaped and not returned, so must still be OOB per your "ruling" and therefore all you have is an incomplete even if it prevents a B from catching the ball. Or does the reasoning change according to how the play works out and by what rule do you justify a changing ruling depending on the outcome of the play?
To me you are making a mound out of a mole hill. So the reciever leaps, big deal, what if he had not leaped?
I assume you are trying to say that the reciever leaping stopped B from a int. Well if the same play had happened and the reciever did not leap then it still stopped B from an INT.
I am not saying you are incorrect, I am just saying there are ways to stop the INT without the leap. IMO-(not supported by rule) this is confusing.

Last edited by kfo9494; Fri Apr 10, 2009 at 08:06am.
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 10, 2009, 08:02am
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Originally Posted by Mike L View Post
Well then, what do you do if said OOB receiver leaps near the sideline and swats the ball away from an inbounds B who is about to intercept the ball? You still have an A who has gone OOB, he still has merely leaped and not returned, so must still be OOB per your "ruling" and therefore all you have is an incomplete even if it prevents a B from catching the ball. Or does the reasoning change according to how the play works out and by what rule do you justify a changing ruling depending on the outcome of the play?
I don't think he'd he changing a rule -

A is running down the sideline and steps out of bounds. The ball comes his way and, seeing B may intercept, A swats the ball away. He is out of bounds when he does this and may or may not realize it. He doesn't jump and he doesn't return in-bounds. All you have is an incomplete pass. There is no IP or anything else - the ball touched an out-of-bounds player and it's dead. If he jumped in the air as he did this, there would be no difference. It's just an incomplete pass.
  #30 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 10, 2009, 09:19am
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Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
You are perfectly free to do what you think is correct, Kdf5, regardless of what I suggest, understanding that you will have to accept whatever consequences your interpretation brings. I'm willing to accept and deal with whatever consequences my interpretation may bring.

However, all your repeating that "the rules" support your interpretation is absolute and utter nonsense. There is no rule that addresses how, what or why a player who goes OOB remains OOB, which cuts both ways so there is no specific language supporting your contention either.

You are entitled to your interpretation of what limitations use of the word "touching" entails, and I simply do not agree, or accept, your litteral interpretation, which I am fully entitled to do.

I've learned, over a relatively long period of time, when there is no specific reference to some unique situation, applying common sense and basic logic is a much more practical approach to finding a workable solution than trying to force some obscure explanation, that cannot be logically and plainly defined.

You do as you choose, and I'll follow my instincts, but stop deluding yourself that your position is directly supported by rule. It is not, not even close.
Any luck with those rules?
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