Scrimmage Kick Bruhaha

[Jim D.]

This doesn't get my mind reved up, it gives me a headache.

OK, K is guilty of illegal formation at the snap.
K is guilty of KCI at R 30.
R gets possession with clean hands.
R fouls at R35.
R has a dead ball PF.

Since it was a change of possession and R got the ball with clean hands, they can keep the ball if they decline both the illegal formation and the KCI penalties.

R is penalized 15 yards from the spot of the foul during the run (R's 35) which will put them at their own 20. Now the dead ball PF is administered, which moves R back to their own 10. 1st & 10 for R, clock starts on the snap.

The other option for R is a replay of the down, but with the live ball fouls offsetting, it would still be 4th & 10 for K. The dead ball penalty would give K a first down so R wouldn't go with that choice.

[jaybird]

R got the ball with "clean hands" and can keep it by declining both K fouls. R can not use the spot of first touching because they subsequently fouled.
K will take the penalty for holding enforced from R's 35 to the R 25. DB foul enforced half the distance to the R 12 1/2. R 1/10 @ R 12 1/2, snap.

[With_Two_Flakes]

I'm with jaybird, 1 & 10 from the 12 1/2 sounds right to me.

[Jim D.]

You all are right of course - holding is 10 yards which moves R back to his 25. The dead ball is 1/2 the distance which goes to the 12 1/2.

[Robert Goodman]

Huh...so in nobody's code is there the choice of an awarded fair catch + 15 yds. from the spot of the KCI? That'd seem to be an advantageous choice for R, which following the dead ball PF would leave them at their own 30 yard line -- if that is indeed an allowed choice.

[golfnref]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Huh...so in nobody's code is there the choice of an awarded fair catch + 15 yds. from the spot of the KCI? That'd seem to be an advantageous choice for R, which following the dead ball PF would leave them at their own 30 yard line -- if that is indeed an allowed choice.

If R accepts a penalty against K, K could then accept the holding penalty against R making it a double foul and replay the down. Then as Jim D. stated the dead ball foul against R would give K a first down. In order for R to keep the ball, they have to decline K's fouls.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Huh...so in nobody's code is there the choice of an awarded fair catch + 15 yds. from the spot of the KCI? That'd seem to be an advantageous choice for R, which following the dead ball PF would leave them at their own 30 yard line -- if that is indeed an allowed choice.

Check out 10-2-2b, R must decline K's fouls to keep the ball.

[Texas Aggie]

NCAA: same as what Ed said -- R must decline K's fouls. Holding enforced from the 35 to the 25, then half the distance for the dead ball foul. No reason to give choices, just explain the result. First and 10 from R's 12.5.

[Ed Hickland]

This brings up one of my pet peeves. When I first started as an R I used to say "if you decline this penalty, or, if you accept this penalty" and it felt really stupid after a while as most penalties declination is a bad choice. Now that does mean I must determine if there is a reason to decline. Then I read Jerry Markbreit who said don't let them make a bad choice.
Now when I'm working a sub-varsity game and another official is the R it really bothers me to hear them give that stupid, "if you decline" option. Say it's a pass interference, "Captain if you decline, you have not be able to replay the down and it will be 3rd and 37 or accept the penalty and its 1st and 10." C'mon, why even mention what happens if you decline, in fact, just tell him, "Captain, first and ten," and move on.